Solar/Photovoltaic

[larrytelcom]

I am new to the forum, I was interested in opening a coin laundry here in Chicago and have found a very good location. I have been gathering info. was wondering one of the complaints I have heard from coin laundry owners was gas prices, are there Solar Energy systems are out there that could power the dryers for say a 4800 sq. ft. coin laundry? I would appreciate any feed back! I have seen a system that can heat water but was wondering if solar could provide enough electric for dryers?(use commercial elec. as bakup) Does anyone have a system inplace for heating water? PLEASE any info would be helpful!

[galaga]

Solar can help heat water but not 100%,you still need water heater.
If you want to see,a laundry call"the largest laundromat in the world" in your area has a large solar system for hot water.

[DuboisLaundry]

solar for dryers?
2 trees with a rope between them
it's called a "clothesline" and was invented forever ago, probably not long after the rope.
It probably makes more sense to pre-heat water for the water heater with solar.

[Octopus]

The short answer is yes, but the cost is a bit steep.

The advantage is that you are taking control of the cost of energy today, and not becoming a victim of what energy might look like tomorrow.

I will not bore you with exact economic details unless you wish to know more, but the answer is yes, you can buy enough panels to power your facility.

-Octo

[larrytelcom]

I am interested in contacting this laundrymat you are speaking of Galaga, Any info. would be helpful! I was also trying to understand how much electricity on average a 4800 sq. ft. coin laundry would use? I know this is a vague question but just wondering where I could find this info. for various laundry facilities. Also I gather that the cost in some cases is expensive but if system is put in place from the start does it justify itself? Also taking into account some of the rebates available?

[larrytelcom]

Octo, I am interested in more of the specifics of what you are speaking of any web-sites or other info. would be great!

[galaga]

"The largest laundromat in the world " is in Cicero IL ,on 22 street,it is big,you won't miss it.
They only use solar the heat water.
The solar panel company also in Chinagoland area,I spoke to the owner once,he is a White Sox fan,can not remember the company's name,you should find them easy .

[Danlaundry]

According to this article they use…. “60% of the energy required for heating water at the facility, and conventional gas-fired water heaters provide the remainder” and the system cost around $140,000????? Yes you are getting grants (tax payers (you and me) helping to pay for it) and other incentives but will take many years to pay for itself.

Face it solar is not economical.


http://www.eere.energy.gov/state_energy_program/news_detail.cfm/news_id=6761

[Danlaundry]

Interesting

http://www.berwyn.net/biz/worldslargest/

[Howard]

I have a 10KW PV system on the roof of my home. It produces about 12,500 KWH of electricity a year. These systems are quite economic in NJ as the state has a wonderful program whereby they pay for 65% of the cost of the system.

[larrytelcom]

What I was trying to gain more insight on was how much electricity would be required to run the dryers in a coin-op laundry? Some examples of different washer/dryer combo's and how much electricity they use? Where can I find these examples?Also is the only/main bad point about the solar systems the price? And if converting a structure into a laundry would'nt in be best to try and have some sort of system where the solar is your main source of electricity and use commercial as a sort of back up, I don't mean to oversimplify.

[Howard]

Larry, e-mail me with a phone number and I will give you a call with some info.

[petefritz]

The washers use 3 phase power, can this be had from solar? I am asuming the electric is for lighting and 110v power?

[DuboisLaundry]

photovoltaic panels generate DC
most applications also store it in arrays of batteries

so 110/ 220 / 3 phase whatever needs to converted from the DC, just a different box to get 3 phase out vs 110 out

[larrytelcom]

So am I thinking realisticly when wondering if electric dryers and/or the entire laundry could provide it's own electric thru the usage of Solar pannels? Does anyone think that it would take up to much space? Would this in conjunction with the system to heat water maybe have too many solar panels?

[DuboisLaundry]

I really don't think PV panels will be adequate for electric dryers think about all that heat! Maybe if you are in a strip mall and get the whole roof for this, leaving the other tenants to depend only on the local utility, but I doubt it.

for the washers, lighting, and the electric motors in gas dryers, probably. look into "net metering" where the local utility acts as your backup, and at slow times you sell electricity back to them

does it have to be PV electric?
given the characteristics of laundromats it seems too me that preheating the water using water circulation panels is a better fit, and still gets a large portion of your energy from solar.
If you are concerned that water panels will freeze in extreme weather that might be a good reason to use PV for your non-heat electric requirements. Here in Wyoming I'm sure it would not really consider water panels. I've got it on the back burner for now, as I already know the pitch of my roof is not right to optimize PV efficiency, and with our frequent high winds I don't want a bunch of panels acting like sails atop a scaffolding, just trying to blow away. Maybe after the building is paid for I'll reconsider.

[galaga]

Solar help you heat the hot water,that is all.If you want Solar to run your washers ,dryers,it will not have enough power and way too expensive.
Gas is expensive,water is not cheap in some area,electric is still cheap so far in most area.

[larrytelcom]

The facility I am interested in is 4800 sq. ft. and in the shape of this laundry www.WashItKwik.com (http://www.WashItKwik.com), I was just trying to give you an idea of the size and shape of the facility.

[Octopus]

Larry,

Here is the straight dope. There are two parts to the equation of Solar Power (Photovoltaic). The first part is the collection of energy, and the second is called Net Metering. You should not rely totally upon your solar panels for your entire energy needs. Net Metering is an arrangement with your local power company (mandated by Federal Law) to allow you to add power to the grid. This means you draw power from the grid only after you have drawn power from your own solar panels. If you generate more power than what you are consuming, your meter will actually run backwards. Any power you accumulate, will be credited towards your account. (Example, you have a light month but your panels really had a good time in the summer days. This means you have added more power to the grid than what you have used and you will receive a credit of power to be used in 12 months).

To receive Net Metering, you must contact your power company and let them know you wish to move to Net Metering. Each state in the Union has different maximum power rating. For example, California credits you to generate a Megawatt per hour, while Arizona only credits you on 10 kilowats per hour.

Now that is out of the way, you need an alternative power source. Wind or Solar are the most popular. Solar will be expensive at first. To have it installed will cost roughly $10+/watt, but most states have substantial rebates to take care of 30%-50% of that cost. I don't think you need battery systems since the power company already will credit you for extra power.

To see how much in solar panels you will need, you can do simple calculations to approximate. This does not take into consideration gray skies or less than optimal conditions. Assume the average proper day light to produce energy is 6 hours per day annually, and you have 30 days a month. (6 x 30 = 180 hours/month). If you burn 5MW of power per month, you will need 27kw+ of solar panels to break even (5 million watts/180 hours). At $10/watt, that will come out to $270,000. Yikes! an outrage! Yes, I know and that is why you don't see more solar. Even if you receive 50% of that back in rebates (down to $135,000), it still is outrageous.

Here is the scary part. In California, I believe we will be in for very difficult times in the next few years in terms of power. I believe power will become so expensive that solar panels will become cost effective at $10/watt.

The good news is: several companies are working Nano-technology to make better panles for quite cheap. This may ease the pain.

Read National Geographic August 2005. There is a good article on the power problems and power solutions.

You, my friend, have just scratched the surface.

Good Luck!

-Octo

[larrytelcom]

Thanks for the info. I was trying to explore alternate power solutions while I was still in the start up/planning stages of starting a coin laundry. Any other info. or advice is always appreciated!

[Howard]

-Octo

Very good explanation. I would like to add some data. Your cost numbers are somewhat high. I installed a system on my home last year and the costs were about $7 a watt. The state has a great rebate program, so they payed 70% of that cost upfront. Thus, my installed cost was only $2.10 per watt. Further, in my state (and many others) you can sell the rights to claim you produce solar power. Currently those rights are trading at about $200 per MW of actual output. Thus, my 10KW system cost me about $21,000 out of pocket and in addition to the savings I have on the 12,000 KWH it produces each year I receive about $2,400 by selling the rights to claim I am green each year! Thus, the system has a payback of just about 4 years and is pure cash flow after that. Further, the Federal goverment just introduced a credit for renewable energy that I believe runs for the next two years.

Solar is a great way to go for electric.

[Octopus]

Howard,

you said a few key terms that clearly make a difference from state to state. In Kahlifornia (spoken like Ahnuld), the only way to get the state rebate is to have an "state authorized" business install the panels. Installing yourself will most certainly save a ton of money as you have done. Also, California Energy companies (PacGas&Elec and SoCalEdison) only credit you for any additional energy you produce. That fact that you are receiving money for your energy generation makes me green with envy.

Production tax credits (by renewables) are for Qualifying Facilites only. Net metered folk don't get production tax credits (I believe).

When you mentioned the state paid upfont, did that mean you didn't have to put the full cost down and wait 3 months for a rebate check?

-Octo

[Howard]

In NJ they pay the rebate for approved contractor installs and for self installs. The rebates when you deal with a contractor (as I did) is direct to the contractor. Thus, while the total cost of my system was somewhere around $80K I only had to come up with about $20K and the contractor had to deal directly with the state to get the rest of his money. And you are correct it takes them 6-9 months to see all their money!