Gas Water Heater

[Kleen]

Hi Everybody.

Posting another "new to the feel question, this time regarding the Hot Water issue.

Is a Gas Tankless Water Heater the way to go for a small laundromat ?

Out there some brands are claiming big capacity ( up to 9gls/mn ) , energy efficiency, low energy cost , etc in such heaters as Takagi TM1 or Bosch Highflow.

Any insights really appreciatted.

Regards

[Duane]

Kleen,

Even for a small mat with all HE machines, it would be difficult for an on demand water heater to keep up during prime hours. You will experience slow fills and warm water, both are big negatives for customers.

Having a 50# machine would take up all the hot water in one fill.

At 9 gals/min, what was the incoming water temperature? In cold climates you can look at incoming water temps below 35F, then you will need to raise the water to at least 120F.

You could mount several on demand units in a row, but where would the savings be?

To save utilities, buy an insulated tank and insulate all your hot water lines.

If you live in a hot climate, with a small mat and all HE machines, then a wall mount might be the way to go. One brand, Rainnei (spell?), might be worth it.

Let us know what you decide on and its performance.

[Kleen]

Thx Duane , I guess you're right.

[Howard]

I agree with Duane - that based on engineering calculations the tankless units can never keep up. With that said, what I don't understand is that there are several owners around here that claim they have them and they work great - I just cannot understand how they claim that.

I have a set of Natco Super-E units which are 95% eff units that have a burner built into a stainless steel 80 gallon tank. The tank is very well insulated (from the factory) and if you put your hand on it you would have no idea that there is hot water in it.

[Duane]

Kleen,

I have thought about a solar heating system to assist in raising the water temperature before entering into the hot water system. I have done some preliminary drawings and setup, but that is as far as it has gone. Buying a system off the shelf is too expensive with a too long of a payback if any. I just want to raise the incoming water 30-50 degrees.

I also thought about running the incoming water line to the hot water tank around the exhaust ducts from the dryers. But I think the savings of raising the incoming water temperature would be off set with problems due to water condensation in the dryer vents.

I have a Hamilton water heater and Howard has a Natco. These two companies seem to have good products and extensive knowledge of the laundry industry. Contact both of them and go from there.

Duane.

[petefritz]

A different view
I have 2 Paloma's hooked up to about 26 washes 4 of them 40 # er's
No way I would go back to tank water heaters for a smaller mat. Let's say less then 28 machines. I would bank 2 or 3 Raninis' for the water flow.
I am doing a mat now, with 27-28 washers, many big, yet I will use tankless. A mat with more than 30 washer will likley do better with tanks.

[Howard]

Pete, can you explain to all of us how this can possibly work. The best flow rate I have seen listed for any of these instant units is about 6 GPM, and most are around 2 GPM. A 50# washer nominally uses 100 gallons of water, or 20 gallons per fill. Thus, just the hot wash cycle will require 20 gallons of hot water. Using the 6 GPM figure it will take roughly 3 minutes and 20 seconds to fill the washer. That assumes no other machines are running. I cannot see how such a system can keep up on busy week ends when all machines are running. I realize they don't all call for full hot water demand at the same time, but many will be calling for it at the same time. Please help educate us all how this works without either significantly dropping the water temperature or causing the washers to take much too long to fill.

Thanks

[petefritz]

In a small mat with two banked, you get twice the fill rate, so it is more like 13 gal per min, It is rare that more than a couple 40# machines filling on HOT at one time, so I have very little flow rate troubles. The store has a number of HF-55 IPSO 12#'s. using about 4 gals for hot fill. If it was a top heavy store or bigger washers, I would have to think about another tankless, or a tank style unit. In my case I had no room for a regular type tank. The people like the steaming hot comming out of the soap box durring the flush. I know a few other mats in my area on tankless, it just makes sense. My utilty expense (gas) is a quite high ratio at a small mat I have with a fairly new tank type system. My tankless have the best ratios. No more tanks for me, tankless work in my market

[grassandgrain]

We are thinking of replacing our water heater and is seriously considering tankless water heater. Any advice ? What brand and how much will it cost ? We have 12 horizons front load washer, 12 top loads, 6-30 pounders and 1 50 pound front load.
The current boiler and tanki is giving us too much problem and is eating all the profits. Any information will be highly appreciated. By the way, the laundromat is in Southern California.

[hotwash]

wall units are the way to go i never ran out of hot water had 30 washers and two palomas, and did over 5k week in my store. i wouldn't put anything but. i am putting nantco in my new store three wall units

[grassandgrain]

How much does one unit of Natco Super-E cost ? What about installation ? In short, how much will be the total cash outlay per unit ? What is the expected lifespan per unit (how many years ? ) Any insight will be highly appreciated.