Independent Solar, Wind and Wave Generating Companies

[Adamski]

Guys,

There was a big article in the local newpaper a week ago. It seems that one of the local boat marinas came upon a great idea. You see, the marina has these huge buildings for winter storage of yachts. These huge buildings also just happen to have huge roofs. So here's the great idea:

The marina will spend $750,000 to cover the roof of one building with photovoltaic solar panels. Those panels will generate a lot of kw of electricity. The marina will then sell that electricty to Consumers Energy - our state wide energy company. It'll be clean energy and as long as the sun shines, it won't cost much to produce either. Plus there are amazing government tax credits available.

Now here's the part that really got my attention. The marina will sell that electricity to Consumers Energy for 45 cents per kwh. That means Consumers Energy will be paying about 4 times more to buy that clean energy than I pay Consumers Energy for the dirty energy I buy from them. Why would Consumers Energy want to buy such expensive electricty only to resell it at a much lower price to me? Because the law forces them to buy it. You see, Michigan, like many other states, is mandating that 10% of the electricity generated in this state must be clean energy within 10 years or so. The local marina will be helping Consumers Energy meet that deadline. The law also requires large energy producers to buy energy from independent renewable energy generating sources regardless of the need of the producers. Wind and wave energy generating companies would likely fall under these same rules.

I think this is a clear indication that our electricity rates will climb steadily well into the future whether one is in favor of clean energy or not. Prepare yourself for the end of cheap electricity is upon us.

[Bluestreak]

If you can't beat them, join them!

At .45/KWhr and the 30% Federal tax credit, I'd think you could approach a 8-10 year payback just by installing a few KWs of solar panels on your own roof. It would be especially nifty if you could buy all your power at non-green prices and sell it at green prices!

This is the kind of legislation that makes no sense whatsoever. Look at this insolation chart. Michigan is one of the crappiest places in the whole US to try and make electricity from Solar panels. http://www.solarpanelsplus.com/solar-panels/large-insolation-map.html

Around here, the local electric co-op has been able to shame some of the tree huggers into paying more for "green" electricity. I saw one of the "green power" stickers in a local bike shop window the other day. Guess what, a rear brake assembly cost over double there than I could buy it online. I suppose that business owner isn't paying for that green power out of his own pocket... and neither did I!

[Howard]

I understand the law says the utility has to buy the power, but how do they come up with the 45 cent figure? Here in NJ we have what is known as net metering. I have a 10kw solar system on my home and when I produce power that I don't consume it flows out on the grid and essentially spins my meter backwards. When I draw electricity it goes in the normal direction. At the annual aniversary date they net it out and if I have a surplus banked they pay me at their marginal cost which is much lower than the retail rate. I have no problem with that as we have a similar law that the power companies must make "X" percent by renewables or pay a penalty. Since they don't do this they buy the right to claim they made the power from us as something like $650 per MW. Thus, my system had a payback of under four years!

[STOUT]

My father in law told me that in Aberdeen, Scotland; which is on the east side by the North Sea, they have installed and are using tidal generators and have for many years now. It has been a tremendous savings to the people there.

I have looked into solar but have not been able to justify the price so far. Perhaps the $ will become more compatible to purchase in the near future.
I also inquired into geothermal. Now that has some interesting concepts.

[AaronBlock]

So what's going on with the $0.45/kWh in Michigan is what is known as a Feed In Tariff (FIT) or, more accurately for Michigan a Photovoltaic Purchase Tariff (PPT). Basically the state mandates a price at which solar energy will be sold to the utility from any generator. Howard, this is similar to what is going on in NJ with SRECs, it is just a a different way of subsidizing solar generation, in Vermont they have a similar FIT for ~$0.35/kWh and this is how they do solar subsidies in Europe. Interestingly in Michigan, while the PPT is $0.45 for commercial installations, it can be as high as $0.65/kWh for installations on residences.

The question as to payback, obviously, depends greatly on whether you put any premium on renewable energy (or for a business, if you think that your customers put any premium on it and might be more likely to patronize your business as a result). however at $0.45/kWh in Muskegon you're probably looking at a simple payback of somewhere in the range of 6.7 years (factor in your discount rate and that goes up, of course).

Again, energy is my field, passion and business, so if anyone ever wants to walk, please feel free to contact me. I'm trying to figure out how to plug my business (providing renewables to laundromats as a guaranteed discount to standard utilities) into the laundry world. So, if you have any ideas on taht, I would love to hear those too.

[Xiong]

how many solar panels would you need to produce enough power to run a laundromat, a household, a car wash, etc...?

how efficient is solar energy, compare to nature gas and electricity via existing coal/nuclear?

hmmm....if the power companies are buying back energy, won't dont residences throughout suitable areas just be incentive to install solar panels then sell back to the companies?

So what's going on with the $0.45/kWh in Michigan is what is known as a Feed In Tariff (FIT) or, more accurately for Michigan a Photovoltaic Purchase Tariff (PPT). Basically the state mandates a price at which solar energy will be sold to the utility from any generator. Howard, this is similar to what is going on in NJ with SRECs, it is just a a different way of subsidizing solar generation, in Vermont they have a similar FIT for ~$0.35/kWh and this is how they do solar subsidies in Europe. Interestingly in Michigan, while the PPT is $0.45 for commercial installations, it can be as high as $0.65/kWh for installations on residences.

The question as to payback, obviously, depends greatly on whether you put any premium on renewable energy (or for a business, if you think that your customers put any premium on it and might be more likely to patronize your business as a result). however at $0.45/kWh in Muskegon you're probably looking at a simple payback of somewhere in the range of 6.7 years (factor in your discount rate and that goes up, of course).

Again, energy is my field, passion and business, so if anyone ever wants to walk, please feel free to contact me. I'm trying to figure out how to plug my business (providing renewables to laundromats as a guaranteed discount to standard utilities) into the laundry world. So, if you have any ideas on taht, I would love to hear those too.

[CanCanCase]

My father in law told me that in Aberdeen, Scotland; which is on the east side by the North Sea, they have installed and are using tidal generators and have for many years now. It has been a tremendous savings to the people there....

Tidal and wave gen works great as long as you don't have too many greenies whining about the poor sea-kittens and snowy plovers which lack the intelligence to swim around the mechanisms...

-Case