Website Dialog & Live Cam Question

[mjwalsh]

We are in the process of setting up a website with a hosting company that allows us to share much more information than the more basic CLA site. At the CLA site we may set up some type of a link or redirect or whatever.

LIve Camera Question: I am confident that we can post a live cam with an IP camera on our network. From those of you that have done it --- what is the approximate bandwidth an IP camera will use up in an entire month. The hosting company has limitations & I want to make sure I don't exceed that limit.

Relating to the above live cam --- I ran the possibility by one of my regular laundry customers because I knew she preferred to pick times when we are not quite so busy & it would be handy to just glance & see from her smart phone or computer & possibly pick a time when there is a lull in the business. A win win for everybody --- so I thought. Her reaction was a bunch of "what ifs" like a "divorced" woman being stalked by her "ex" who sees her via the live camera on the website & then knows where to find her & murders her. I tried to convince her that people's safety would be more likely improved by the camera ---- any input on long that line?

Another related to above: Do you think there would any issue with using some footage on the website as part of a video narrative showing customers in the process of doing their laundry. Obviously we would do our best to avoid showing them in an embarrassing way. It might help potential future customers notice the friendly courteous atmosphere & how the customers move between each other etc. I am not sure that getting permission from each & every person is a practical logistic. They know there are cameras on so a person would think all the customers using the facility have agreed to that specific visual compromise to their privacy.

MJ

[Adamski]

Mike,

I think a live camera feed to the website is just taking it a little too far. The downsides include:

1. A customer's spouse could check up on the customer through the website.

2. A competitor could see how busy the place is and compare it directly to his own place minute by minute.

3. An individual who is bent on stealing purses or doing other unwanted acts could prepare and time his actions based on what he sees on the website.

4. A customer who is checking the website to see how busy the place is might decide that it's too busy and then go to her second favorite laundromat instead of your's.

So I think there's too little to gain and too much to lose by providing a live feed to your website. Some things are better left un-video-fed.

[Duane]

MJ,

Sorry to disagree with Larry, but....

1. Happens all the time and I see students on the phone and waiving to their parents on the web cam. Very popular.

2. I don't care if my competitors like watching my video. Maybe they will raise their prices and get their own video system.

3. Your reaching here Larry, if a thief wants to steal a purse, would they do it when they know there are cameras in the store?

4. It actually helps spread out the business on a busy day. People will stay at home and wait for the store to empty out before leaving. If they just go to a mat and it is busy, they are more likely to leave and go to another mat since they are all packed up and ready to do their laundry.

I have had a video feed for 8 years now. The best thing it has done is spread out my busy days. On Sundays I get hundreds of hits on that page from customers looking to see how busy it is in the store.

I get a lot of new customers when they check out Google and then go to my site and can see live video of my store.

Not sure of the bandwidth as I altered the scripting and instead of streaming live video, I just update the picture every few seconds.

Duane.

[CanCanCase]

Larry-

All good points about what COULD happen, but in this young vs. Old debate, just because something CAN happen doesn't mean it will...

As much as my security cameras are a deterrent to bad behavior, a cam that's viewed by the whole world adds even more deterrent effect.

#1: why couldn't the customers spouse check up on him via his cell phone, word of friends, or just driving by the place? Online band records might show that he used the ATM, the "find my iPhone" or "family map" apps will always rat out a location, and don't we all try to build our stores with high visibility from the street or parking lot?

#2: a competitor can see how busy the place is from the street, and compare to is own via his security cameras or reports from staff. I look in my competitor's windows every time I go to the grocery store and always chuckle that I have more cars in my lot...

#3: I guess in a high crime area the crooks sit at home watching web pages, spot an opportunity, drive to the laundromats, pull off their crimes, drive to the safe house, then blog about it on Facebook... In my town, they just sit outside casing the joint. Anything the webcam might show can be easily viewed from the windows too... It's called being a public place.

#4: Again, what decision can the customer make from the webcam that they couldn't make from the street or parking lot? I feel I'm far enough ahead of the competition in town that we can recommend the store down the street if ours isn't to the customers liking. Without exception, everyone I've sent down the road comes back and tells us it was a mistake to go anywhere else. If we didn't want people to be able to see how busy our stores are, the windows would be much smaller and darker.

As for using footage, I've researched that one before... If the person on camera can be recognized (i.e. an image of their face) you'll need a waiver on file giving their consent to use their image for any commercial purpose. If, however, the camera is positioned high so that you're basically filming the tops of heads, there shouldn't be much problem.

- Case

Mike,

I think a live camera feed to the website is just taking it a little too far. The downsides include:

1. A customer's spouse could check up on the customer through the website.

2. A competitor could see how busy the place is and compare it directly to his own place minute by minute.

3. An individual who is bent on stealing purses or doing other unwanted acts could prepare and time his actions based on what he sees on the website.

4. A customer who is checking the website to see how busy the place is might decide that it's too busy and then go to her second favorite laundromat instead of your's.

So I think there's too little to gain and too much to lose by providing a live feed to your website. Some things are better left un-video-fed.

[Adamski]

Case and Duane,

You will notice that I used words like "could" and "might" when describing how a live feed could be used. Operators here represent a very wide range of laundromat operations and clientele. I think anyone considering setting up a live feed should consider all possibilities first and then make the best decision he can. Personally, I wouldn't do it at this point in time.

One thing to consider is how many other businesses provide a live video feed on their website. I don't think banks, bars, grocery stores or restaurants do this and many of them have on-site cameras. One must consider what your goal is and what will it cost to achieve that goal. Just because you might see some positive result from using the live feed does not mean there aren't negative results as well. You can't know if some potential customers are going elsewhere because they don't want their laundry and actions to be on display for the world to see.

Case, why do you consider this a "young vs old debate"?

[surfflite]

Duane,

I see there is nobody playing pool or air hockey this fine Sunday morning and there is some lady in a yellow shirt that looks like the lady that kidnapped my baybay....I'm calling the cops. LOL


Seriously though, I understand both the pro & cons of live feeds mentioned here. But IMO, it's too much like Big Brother. Having the ability to playback the last 30 days activity in case of an incident is good enough for me. Ask yourself this...is the laundromat underwear bandit watching and perhaps casing the place out for his next raid?

[CanCanCase]

Seriously though, I understand both the pro & cons of live feeds mentioned here. But IMO, it's too much like Big Brother. Having the ability to playback the last 30 days activity in case of an incident is good enough for me. the playback and remote monitoring aspect of video surveillance is the more Orwellian concept. Making part or all of that feed available to the world has nothing to do with Big Brother... He's already watching.

One thing to consider is how many other businesses provide a live video feed on their website. I don't think banks, bars, grocery stores or restaurants do this and many of them have on-site cameras. bars and restaurants do... At least some, for the same reasons laundromats could. Banks and jewelry stores don't for security and insurance purposes. Those businesses are part "secret" and all about being secure. Groceries? I don't know. Would you go a few more blocks if your favorite Publix market or Albertson's was busy? I might fight the crowd or wait until I knew it would be less hectic. In a laundry, the customer is already loaded up... If they get there and your store is busy, I don't think the odds of waiting for slower times are too great.
One must consider what your goal is and what will it cost to achieve that goal.I think the goal is to create a branding/marketing gimmick that differentiates your store from the others. (where have I heard that bit before?) to that end, I don't see much expense... The Internet service is already there, a few bucks for a webcam, and a few small changes to a web page that you may already have up...
Just because you might see some positive result from using the live feed does not mean there aren't negative results as well. You can't know if some potential customers are going elsewhere because they don't want their laundry and actions to be on display for the world to see. That's a bit of a stretch. We intentionally build our stores to be a "fishbowl" to maximize visibility. Realistically, anyone who is so paranoid as to go elsewhere because I have a webcam feed will likely go elsewhere because thousands of folks can already watch them doing their wash just by walking or driving by.

Case, why do you consider this a "young vs old debate"?young vs. older ways of thinking about our operations.... Old dogs, new tricks and all that. This debate is nearly identical to the coin vs. card debate. I've heard "Operators here represent a very wide range of laundromat operations and clientele. I think anyone considering setting up a [card system] should consider all possibilities first and then make the best decision he can. Personally, I wouldn't do it at this point in time" many times before.

- Case

[Adamski]

...young vs. older ways of thinking about our operations.... Old dogs, new tricks and all that. This debate is nearly identical to the coin vs. card debate. I've heard "Operators here represent a very wide range of laundromat operations and clientele. I think anyone considering setting up a [card system] should consider all possibilities first and then make the best decision he can. Personally, I wouldn't do it at this point in time" many times before.

Case,

This "old dog" thinks that just because some new-fangled thing comes along; that doesn't necessarily make using it a great idea. I've tried many, many new things over the years and some were just a waste of time, effort and money.

I don't see where the young have a lock on all the good ideas and the old are stuck with only ancient ideas. That would be a very prejudicial way to look at people - young vs old. The young are not the only people using today's technology. Heck, I've got radar technology on my yacht that would make your head spin.

Without meaning to restart the old coin vs card debate; I would merely state that just because you like your card system, that doesn't mean that it's the best system for every laundromat. Indeed, 95% of US laundromats continue to choose coin over card and that is one big majority. That does not make all those operators either old or too set in their ways to try new technology. They have simply made a decision about their laundromat that best suits their situation.

[CanCanCase]

Larry-

"young" and "old" as I'm using them here have more to do with a person's way of thinking rather than chronological age. You've had a very long time to look at stores running on coin, and a relatively short time to examine the card concept. Same with video... People have been running stores with no video for centuries, VHS or Beta tapes for decades and digital, DVR-based systems for relatively few years. I, on the other hand, have been immersed in these particular newer technologies most of my life, and haven't experienced what life was like before their advent. Young and old.

Side note: webcams aren't exactly "new fangled"... The remotely accessible DVR in mainstream use is actually a newer concept. Live or delayed broadcast of webcam video has been don ever since there were web pages with pictures on them.

Boating is actually another - very comparable - industry when it comes to technology. Take an old salt who's been commercial fishing for 50 years and show them your GPS, chart plotter with 3D vector charts 50 mile radar and FLIR infrared imaging and they'll give the same spiel about how all they need is a chart and depth sounder or Loran-C box... Why would anyone need to take their windows laptop out to sea? What head-spinning radar technology do you use? My trusty Furuno helped me explore most of the 11000 miles of coastline in the NW, both for pleasure and commercial purposes. What will REALLY make your head spin is the bridge of a 3000 passenger cruise ship... I logged hours with the harbor pilot in SE AK for a few seasons, and there's a great example of putting all that is new and modern to valuable use. (oh, most of those cruise ship bridges now have live feed webcams, by the way!)

The 95% statistic is skewed... I'll accept that 95% of mats in the US run on coin. But how many have had major equipment replacements or upgrades (or are new stores) since card technology was refined and made viable? That number is MUCH lower. A store running equipment from 1952 just can't be compared to a store built in 2010. Let's see some coin vs card numbers while only looking at stores that are new or have replaced over 75% of their machines in the past 3-5 years. That would be a better reflection of which technology store owners are continuing to choose.

You've already made the end-all point in this debate (webcams OR coin/card)... Each store is different, and each owner must go with what he/she believes will best profit that situation. The original question wasn't whether each of us thinks a webcam is a good or bad idea. I don't have a good answer for the bandwidth question, as it's never beeof concern to me with no monthly cap. The waiver question has been answered by at least one informed owner.

I won't re-write all the articles that have been written on the topic of so called "early adopters" vs "technophobes." none of us are really either of these, but just like politics, we all lean towards one end of the spectrum or the other in varying degrees...

Whew... I think I'll go hang some webcams now! ;-)

- Case
Case,

This "old dog" thinks that just because some new-fangled thing comes along; that doesn't necessarily make using it a great idea. I've tried many, many new things over the years and some were just a waste of time, effort and money.

I don't see where the young have a lock on all the good ideas and the old are stuck with only ancient ideas. That would be a very prejudicial way to look at people - young vs old. The young are not the only people using today's technology. Heck, I've got radar technology on my yacht that would make your head spin.

Without meaning to restart the old coin vs card debate; I would merely state that just because you like your card system, that doesn't mean that it's the best system for every laundromat. Indeed, 95% of US laundromats continue to choose coin over card and that is one big majority. That does not make all those operators either old or too set in their ways to try new technology. They have simply made a decision about their laundromat that best suits their situation.

[Adamski]

Case,

Laundromat card systems are not new. They have been available for about 25 years now. There are about 6 different brands out there so there's plenty to chose from if one wants a card system. Most laundromats have changed hands, rehabbed or re-equipped since card systems have come on the scene including my own (twice). If any card system was destined to replace coins, I'm sure it would have happened by now. The fact is, card systems have their own set of issues (as do coins) and most operators don't seem to want to spend $50,000+ to trade one set of issues for another set of issues.

[MrMachine]

Case,

Laundromat card systems are not new. They have been available for about 25 years now. There are about 6 different brands out there so there's plenty to chose from if one wants a card system. Most laundromats have changed hands, rehabbed or re-equipped since card systems have come on the scene including my own (twice). If any card system was destined to replace coins, I'm sure it would have happened by now. The fact is, card systems have their own set of issues (as do coins) and most operators don't seem to want to spend $50,000+ to trade one set of issues for another set of issues.


Whenever an apartment laundry room near my stores converts from coin to card, my business actually goes UP.
That's a fact. Some of the new customers tell me that it's the cards they don't like, and some of them tell me they don't like the machines that "don't have enough water".
Some of the new MATS in my area that open with card will take a piece from me, but nothing that I can't live with so far.

I personally would not change from coin to card, not so much for the expense, because I know that would be justified by the benefits of the card systems. I would not convert to cards because I fear losing too many customers. There is an owner in my area who has 20 stores, 2 of which are card operated. He said he'd rather stick with coin.

[Adamski]

... There is an owner in my area who has 20 stores, 2 of which are card operated. He said he'd rather stick with coin.

Paul,

My equipment distributor sells a card system. When his own laundromat was destroyed by fire, he replaced all the equipment with brand new, coin-operated Huebsch equipment (which he can buy wholesale because that's one of the brands he sells). If he cannot justify buying a card system for his new laundromat when he can buy it wholesale; I certainly cannot justify buying one either.

[CanCanCase]

Laundromat card systems are not...
Whenever an apartment laundry room...
My equipment distributor sells a card system...

These posts simply reinforce my point which (midway through the discussion) was also what Larry said... "Operators here represent a very wide range of laundromat operations and clientele. I think anyone considering setting up a [card system OR live-feed-cam] should consider all possibilities first and then make the best decision he can..." It's personal preference for the store owner, who really should know their customers better than any opinionated forum poster or distributor.

Today, without one single exception, every member of my "regular monday crowd" asked when their EasyCards would service BOTH stores. When I mentioned that I was working on it again, I decided to open the discussion about coin vs card AND about a live webcam and see what they said...

All 93 people I spoke to just today were much happier with the card system over the old heavy piles of quarters they used to use. About 20% (18 people from my notes) didn't care about a webcam. 71 people (that's about 74%, right?) loved the idea, even when the "cons" were explained. A whopping 4 customers didn't like the idea of being "watched", until I reminded them of the existing video cameras. The general consensus was that in our area, and for my stores, a live feed camera is quite the useful new feature with the "pro" outweighing the "con".

That's my two bits' worth...

-Case

[Adamski]

...All 93 people I spoke to just today were much happier with the card system over the old heavy piles of quarters they used to use. About 20% (18 people from my notes) didn't care about a webcam. 71 people (that's about 74%, right?) loved the idea, even when the "cons" were explained. A whopping 4 customers didn't like the idea of being "watched", until I reminded them of the existing video cameras. The general consensus was that in our area, and for my stores, a live feed camera is quite the useful new feature with the "pro" outweighing the "con"...

Case,

Well there you go then. Put in the web cam and let us know how it goes.

We're all merely offering opinions and imput based on our own experience and perception of each given situation. I've always urged others to evaluate what is offered here and then make their own decision regarding their business.

I'm glad your customers are so enthusiastic about your card system.

[Danlaundry]

Duane,

Curious what the resolution is of your website camera (Number of Lines)?

Thank you,
Dan

[Duane]

I believe that my web camera is still an older camera with either 380 or 420 lines. Most of my newer cameras are at least 570 lines.

[CanCanCase]

Dan-

The webcams we use are all megapixel or more for recording purposes. I doubt you want to consider putting that much resolution out via a website, however. The code that calls the camera image on the web page "dumbs down" the image to under 320px for streaming and public display.

- Case

[ldm]

It would appear at least one of your customers thinks it's a bad idea, you might want to ask a whole lot more to get better feed back from your most important source, the customer.

If you move ahead with this, I would seriously consider not running the live cam unless you have the store attended. There are super sick creeps out there that could take advantage of a live cam to make a crime more convenient once they have mapped out a favorite target. That could end you up in court because that's how lawsuits are filed..shotgun style.

If you were to go live, you might consider having a security firm monitor the system while you are open and or closed to report to you or the police as may be needed. Les