Steel bases

[ltsplumb]

I have a question concerning hard mount bases. Is the steel base
the way to go or is a concrete base just as good?

[Adamski]

Itsplumb,

I like to use steel bases because it's much easier to install, move, remove and sell steel bases. Steel bases can be installed and re-installed time and time again. This is a consideration for me because I sell my old equipment long before it's actually reached the practical end of its life. When I sell older front load washers, I sell the bases too and Mr Buyer is getting a nice package deal that he can re-install in his laundromat. I can then install my new steel bases and washers without the need to remove huge, concrete bases.

[MrMachine]

Itsplumb,

I like to use steel bases because it's much easier to install, move, remove and sell steel bases. Steel bases can be installed and re-installed time and time again. This is a consideration for me because I sell my old equipment long before it's actually reached the practical end of its life. When I sell older front load washers, I sell the bases too and Mr Buyer is getting a nice package deal that he can re-install in his laundromat. I can then install my new steel bases and washers without the need to remove huge, concrete bases.

Larry,

You don't have to remove the concrete base when you change washers. Just cut the old bolts and drill new bolts. I've done this a few times. However, if you want to change the MIX of washers, such as adding more triple loaders in place of double loaders, then the platform must be jack hammered and repoured, which is not as bad as it sounds though.
Besides, the ballast provided by a well poured concrete base is literally "rock solid" with no vibration whatsoever, and the concrete platform guy will build a nice overflow drain into the base so you never get water on your floor under the washers.

I'd say there are pros and cons to both systems.

[Adamski]

Paul,

There was a time when I installed 12 Milnors on 3 concrete pads with the 24 J bolts (per pad) placed in the wet concrete during the pour. Getting that right takes some talent, believe me. Anyway, we would also install a drain tube in the center of each washer between the 6 bolts. This tube allowed any leakage to go through the tube and into the ground beneith the concrete pad. Obviously, these tubes were designed to handle minor leakage such as a dripping door seal or a small leak in a drain hose.

With today's frontloaders, I've found little reason to worry about leakage. The only accomodation we make for leaks now is to leave a 1" wide gap in the grout so that water cannot become trapped on the floor between base members. Even that slight accomodation has proven unnecessary though. We no longer make any accomodation for door seal leakage as it's a very rare event that is better handled in other ways.

[MrMachine]

Paul,

There was a time when I installed 12 Milnors on 3 concrete pads with the 24 J bolts (per pad) placed in the wet concrete during the pour. Getting that right takes some talent, believe me. Anyway, we would also install a drain tube in the center of each washer between the 6 bolts. This tube allowed any leakage to go through the tube and into the ground beneith the concrete pad. Obviously, these tubes were designed to handle minor leakage such as a dripping door seal or a small leak in a drain hose.

With today's frontloaders, I've found little reason to worry about leakage. The only accomodation we make for leaks now is to leave a 1" wide gap in the grout so that water cannot become trapped on the floor between base members. Even that slight accomodation has proven unnecessary though. We no longer make any accomodation for door seal leakage as it's a very rare event that is better handled in other ways.

Larry,

They use rigid templates for each brand and model machine to set the J-bolts in the right spots. Much easier.

Plus, my guy will put a very slight backward pitch on the platform so any spills from anywhere in the machine including open door spills(he also puts a lip along the outer edge), will drain under and behind the washers. He also cuts a V- shaped trough along the rear of the washers. The trough will pitch laterally along the rear of the platform to an overflow drain that's located approx every 6 machines or so.
The overflow drain is usually a 1 1/2 or 2" drain built into the cement and is separate from the washer's 3-4" drain, which is also built into the cement base behind the machine.
The cement is poured up to and around the bulkhead's supports so that the bulkhead is also rock solid.

Your drain tubes makes me think that your store is on a slab with no basement, as are many Mats. That allows for a more secure platform as far as vibration is concerned.
My stores have wood floors with basements so the concrete is especially important.
When they build the mold, they also will cut several 10" holes in the floor and attach 10" ductwork going from the floor right down to the basement floor where the ductwork ends in a hole in the basement floor. They put some re-bar into the ductwork, and they will pour the whole thing at once, with the wet concrete going right down the ductwork to the holes in the basement floor.
When it hardens, it's practically bomb proof!!
This is actually a requirement of the NYC Fire dept. If there was ever a fire, they want fireproof support in the basement so the machines don't come down on top of a Fireman.

I LIKE IT Baby!!

[Adamski]

Paul,

Certainly installing hardmount frontloaders over a basement involves special considerations. I can see where using a mass-poured slab such as you described would have advantages in that situation.

[Self_Suds_WV]

Paul,

Thanks for the great description but I am more visual -- is there any chance you have photos of the platform that shows the features you are talking about?

When the concrete guy poured my Laundromat floor he put the drains down the center of the space. On the few occasions I have had a serious leak the water heads straight for the drains but has to run about 18" out from the washers to reach the drains.

On a lighter note, the local college kids tease me about the Laundromat being 'haunted' because carts move on their own. But I know it is the ever so slight dip in the floor and the vibration of my wascomat W-125s.

Larry,

When I first grouted in my W-75s and 125s I did not know to leave the small opening in the grout. If there was a small leak in the drain, etc it caused water to pool under my machines.

I reread my install manuals (shared with me by a generous contributor to this board) and the overemphasized the importance of no gaps in the grout. So I called wascomat and they assured me it would not compromise the installation to create the openings.

Once I created the openings I can see when the drain diaphragm has been punctured (often by a bra underwire) and can get the problem fixed pronto.

[MrMachine]

Self Suds,

Whenever I build or expand, I always take before, during, and after photos.
I know I have some progressive shots of a platform being built from beginning to end.
Give me a day or 2 and I'll post them here.

[Adamski]

John,

Huebsch base installation instructions actually recommend leaving some small drain openings in the grout so water is not trapped within the base frame members.

[surfflite]

While we are on this base subject. I just bought the correct bases for my 2 SC60's. I have attached pics of the infamous "2 parallel rails base?" I currently have and the base configuration I purchased. Can someone describe to me the proper way to install the new bases? Here is what I envision but I want it done right, so if you would, please help if I'm off.

1) Remove the current "rails".
2) Removed rusty old floor anchors and thoroughly clean concrete
3) Position base on floor space and mark concrete for new anchor bolt locations. These are both end isle machines so not to bad.
4) Install anchor bolts in floor (what method and/or brand is recommended?) I recently attended a seminar and all the service/installer guys mentioned not using redheads but to bore it out and use something like Quikcrete or maybe Shokcrete to set studs, but it may have been called something else.
5) Grey area here???? Do I grout the base to the concrete floor? if so what type grout and method. Is the grout just to "fill the gaps" between the base's flatness vs your concrete floors flatness?
6----- I can get the rest after I get the base in place.

Ya, probably don't want the distributor that we can't mention, selling you this 2 parallel channels bolted to the floor set-up or ANYTHING else for that matter.
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/5144/oldmachinebase.jpg (http://img839.imageshack.us/i/oldmachinebase.jpg/)http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/365/machinebases.jpg (http://img844.imageshack.us/i/machinebases.jpg/)



I have 1 60 out of service because it can shake the front AND back panel completely off in 1 cycle. It is appearing upon inspection that the previous owner has actually welded this machine frame directly to the half assed channels the distributor had installed. I'll have to grind it off the channels. The floor bolts are rusted and loose. Did I mention, no center LOAD rail. :) My only other 60 shakes a little bit and it also has no load rail. So I bought 2 bases to correct those 2. No load rail on any of my machines. Only 30 more bases to go!!
Oh the things you learn After you buy your 1st mat. I think I have learned a lot more about due diligence in the passed 3 years that I can apply to the next one. :)

[Adamski]

Locate the base in position.
Set the base in the exact position on the floor where you want it to end up. If it's way off level, use some wood shims to temporarily level and stabilize the base in position.

Drill the base mounting holes.
I use Hilti brand mounting bolts and Hilti epoxy. I bought a Hilti epoxy gun that mixes and shoots in the epoxy. I use a rented, heavy duty, impact drill with an 14" long concrete bit. I drilled the holes in the concrete by putting the bit through the top and bottom holes in the steel base and then against the floor. Using the base holes as a guide, I drilled into the floor about 3 inches deep. Try not to drill all the way through the concrete floor. After drilling all my holes, I move the base aside and use a shop vac and a bottle brush to thoroughly clean out each hole. If any holes broke through the bottom of the concrete floor, simply stuff a piece of rag down the hole to form a new hole bottom.

Level the base.
Replace the base in position over the holes and use flat washers set under the corners of the base to raise the base about 3/8" off the floor. Then add flat washers as needed to raise any low corners of the base and make it level side to side and front to back. At this point the base is positioned over the mounting holes where it will end up.

Epoxy the studs in the floor holes.
Next, squirt enough epoxy into a hole to fill it half full. Immediately insert a 1/2" X 6" long mounting stud into the hole, turning it as it sinks down into the epoxy until it's all the way down. It should stick up out of the hole and through the base hole about 2" or so. Continue this epoxy process until all studs are set. Allow about 30 minutes for the epoxy to harden (follow label directions) and then install the flat washers and nuts on the studs and hand-tighten (no wrenches).

Grout between the floor and the base.
The purpose of grouting is to ensure complete contact between the bottom of the steel base and the top of the concrete floor. Use non-shrinking "set grout" (bought at masonry products stores that sell to contractors) to grout between the top of the floor and the bottom of the base members. Use a small, square trowel to push the grout under the frame members and completely fill the gap. The grout will be a little stiff and will stand up in the space pretty well. If you mix it a little soft, it will soon get stiffer so don't be too concerned if it sags some as you begin grouting. Just go back in a couple of minutes and push it back up to the frame. The idea is to fill the gap under all frame members and just leave a few 1" wide "weap holes" so any leaking water can exit to behind the base. Allow the set grout to harden over night.

Secure the base in position.
The next day, knock out the flat washers that you placed under the base corners in the "Level the base" paragraph. Fill these spaces where the washers were with set grout. Then use a ratchet wrench to tighten down the nuts on the studs. Clean up the area and your base installation is complete.

[surfflite]

Thanks Larry. Once again, that is perfectly explained. I'm looking forward to fixing this problem. :)

[MrMachine]

Paul,

Thanks for the great description but I am more visual -- is there any chance you have photos of the platform that shows the features you are talking about?


Here's a shot I took today in the basement of the ductwork with the rebar and concrete inside. They purposely put the ductwork at an angle to give more strength. Much like how a bridge will have it's girders in the form of triangles.

Another code requirement...there must not be any holes in the basement ceiling.

I'll post the shots of the platform in progress soon.

[MrMachine]

Here are 3 old shots of the concrete base in a store I built about 7 years ago.


In the first photo, you can see two areas of fresh cement. One in front of the worker, and one behind him. They had just poured the cement down the ductwork that goes to the basement and he's poking it down.
Also note the gridwork of rebar along the floor inside the form.
You can see the main 4" drain for the washer output and also the smaller 2" "overflow" drain pipe that catches any spills on the platform from the washers.

The concrete will continue to be poured until only the 2" tees are sticking up from the main drain. The tee for the overflow will have the V-shaped trough formed in the top of the platform pitched down towards it. The concrete will flow around the metal supports for the bulkhead, locking it in place.


In the 2nd photo, you can see the trough type V pitch behind the washer, along with 2" copper hot & cold supply pipes coming up from the basement with ball valve emergency shutoffs. All the drainpipes are now buried in concrete except for about 2" of the Tees exposed so we can connect the flexible drains from the washers.
The electrical trough supplies all the pigtails for the 3 phase washers, with the circuit breaker panel boxes on the other side of the wall of the bulkhead.
I had them put a utility outlet every 4 machines on the electrical trough to plug in power tools, etc.

On this particular platform, I opted to not put the standard Lip along the front edge of the platform because I wanted to install ceramic tiles on the face and along the top edge.

http://www.planetlaundry.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif


The third photo has an area that is for employees only. Notice the ceramic tiles on the platform, and Kramer on the wall (heh heh).

These platforms are basically a "system" that integrates the stability of the basement floor, thousands of pounds of concrete, rebar, drain lines and j-bolts, with the machines placed on athe top that has a slight backwards pitch to collect any water spills first into the V-trough, and then pouring into the 2" overflow drain.
All the washers could be spinning at the same time and there will be NO perceptible vibration.

[Jefflange]

Nice install job. I prefer to install twist lock plugs on my washers.

[MrMachine]

Nice install job. I prefer to install twist lock plugs on my washers.

Jeff,

Twist lock plugs are good, but they are not allowed in NYC code.
All 3 phase washers must be hardwired here, with the shutoffs or breakers less than 30 feet away.

I have another store where individual breakers are directly behind each washer. This is both good and bad. Good that I can easily shut off the power to the machine I am working on, but hard for my employees if they have to shut off a washer because the breakers are underneath the bulkhead lids. They have to climb up over the washer, lift the formica lid to expose the switch, and then shut it off.
With the panel box on the other side of the knee wall, it's very easy for them to shut off any washer.

Some older Mats here will have the breakers behind each machine and ABOVE the bulkhead, usually mounted on a wall but this looks terrible, IMO.

[epic02]

Paul, Is that a portrait of Kramer above your wash machines? Here's one I have above my dryers A lot of people get a kick out of it.

[MrMachine]

Paul, Is that a portrait of Kramer above your wash machines? Here's one I have above my dryers A lot of people get a kick out of it.

Yes Kenny, that's a portrait of Kramer from one of the episodes. My foreign born customers think he's the owner of the Mat, lol.

Your shot is GREAT! It's a funny way of telling the customers not to overload. You should come up with one for overloading soap. You'd be doing the industry a great service!

Before I had air conditioning, I used to put up a sign every summer that said:
"It may be HOT in here, but where else can you get a FREE Sauna?"

[Jefflange]

NYC has some stupid codes. Are you allowed to use PVC drains in NYC or does it have to be cast iron?

[MrMachine]

NYC has some stupid codes. Are you allowed to use PVC drains in NYC or does it have to be cast iron?

Nope...can't use PVC. It's actually not stupid though. The reasoning is that if there's a fire, and PVC burns, toxic fumes are emitted. NYC is way too populated.

I happen to love PVC as far as a nice smooth surface that is less likely to snag items in the drain, but I have to use cast iron.

[Jefflange]

The reason you have to use cast iron is because of the Plumbers Union.
I bet in Japan they use PVC and they have alot of people jammed into Tokyo.