Unions

[rjwarner]

You may have heard of my state's (Wisconsin) Governor's proposal to eliminate the collective bargaining from the states public employees.

While this does not typically affect the laundry business, I am interested in hearing all of the opinions regarding this issue.

How Wisconsin fares will most likely affect how other states tackle this issue.

What do you all think?

[DaveLevenson]

If collective bargaining is not available, how do these employees discuss their pay, benefits, etc. with their management? Does it become a massive free-for-all in which every employee negotiates individually, and employees compete with each other? That seems terribly inefficient.

On the other hand, if the unions take the approach that: "you're having a recession, why should we give up anything?" and thereby attempt to separate themselves from the rest of the population at a time when everybody is facing lean times, it's hard to have much sympathy for them.

Here in NJ, though collective bargaining, itself, is not being threatened, the governor is attempting to share the economic pain between the citizens and their government by pairing back some benefits previously granted to state, county, and municipal employees. He's catching lots of push-back from these employees, but is enjoying lots of popular support among the rest of the population.

My personal opinion is that NJ has far too many municipalities which are far too small. Nearly every one of our 565 little towns of 5,000 to 15,000 people has its own mayor, council, police force, public works department, and school district. This is far too much government overhead per taxpayer. We also have county governments -- I've never understood what role they play, but they do provide courts of law, and public libraries. I was very pleased to read, in this morning's local paper, that a significant number of townships are actively considering regionalizing their police forces -- a good first step, I think, in reducing the cost of government.

[rjwarner]

In the case of Wisconsin, the Gov wants to eliminate the collective bargaining with regards to the benefits only.....not the wage issue. The union would still use collective bargaining for wage issues.

[CanCanCase]

If collective bargaining is not available, how do these employees discuss their pay, benefits, etc. with their management? Does it become a massive free-for-all in which every employee negotiates individually, and employees compete with each other? That seems terribly inefficient...

The Federal Government doesn't collectively bargain their employee wages and benefits. Just establish reasonable pay-grades... Each "class" or grade has its own set of wages, benefits, increases, etc. It's not a per-employee free-for-all, it leaves the folks writing and amending the budget to establish what each grade of work is worth to the taxpayer.

Just like in many private businesses: new employees with a given set of responsibilities have a given set of benefits while those who are assigned greater responsibility receive an expanded set of benefits.

I havent followed WI too closely, but here in OR, the unions pay big money (generated from union dues from their members) to the political campaigns. Once the Union endorsed candidate for Governor is elected, they sit down to "collective bargaining talks" with the union to negotiate bigger benefits and higher pay. Wait! Where do public employee wages and benefits come from? Yep...those are taxpayer dollars! THEN, a percentage of those higher wages is paid to the union (more dues) which are then used to fund the next campaign... See the cycle? My tax dollars pay public employees who pay the union which elects their politicians who negotiate higher pay which is paid back to the unions for dues.... Rinse and repeat!

By course of human nature, any system whereby people can vote themselves more money will eventually fall apart when the money runs out.

- Case

[ldm]

I say "level the paying field" in every State. If the union members don't want their job and benefits when they are closely matching what other folks in a similar market are paying outside of the govt employee pool, then they can quit. I am sure there are qualified people that will line up to fill out those job applications.

Like Case pointed out, the current arrangement results in way too much generosity with our tax dollars. It's a left wing money machine...and worse yet, the Union members for the most part get no say in where their dues are spent in the political arena.

Could you imagine that blank check system being OK in a private job, could you imagine leaving the State and refusing to do your elected job and not being fired, could you imagine simply not being able to be fired regardless of your job performance. Our kids are being educated by the first hired regardless of their qualifications...think that would work in a private school. Hell, there are some States that have to pay Union teachers that are proven unfit to be in a classroom their whole paycheck for sitting in the rubber room doing what they please at tax payers expense...could you imagine having to do that with your employees.

The system is broken. Leveling the paying field, firing those that deserve to be fired for good cause whether they are politicians or govt. employees( like in a private setting), would be a good start.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong....on second thought, no I couldn't.

[Adamski]

Guys,

This whole union thing has gotten totally out of control. That's why GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. The states are next in line. The Federal government will be next. Do you realize that in 1920, the Federal government's budget was just 3% of Gross Domestic Product (the value of all goods and services produced in the country). Today, the Fed's budget is more like 20% of GDP (and rising). It's crazy and it cannot continue this way. We're producing less and taxing more.

A good friend of mine owned a small laundromat. One day in 2009, he complained to me that the town had voted in a new $45 million dollar high school and his taxes would be going up by $1,000 to pay for it. He decided to raise some prices due to this property tax increase. It was bad timing for a price increase and he lost customers. He filed for bankruptcy shortly after that. He had to move into a different house and his old dog would not be able to handle the steps so he had to put him down. While digging a grave for the dog, my friend died right there from a heart attack. The root cause of the entire tragedy was the school board's desire for a new high school in the midst of a deep recession.

[surfflite]

The vast (silent) majority of the people are strongly dissatisfied (with the protests), so the performance by the minority becomes a self-delusional ruckus. It's 2011 for crying out loud. Unions are so 1930's. They've created the entire "Outsourcing of America" movement. How ironic is this? They complain about losing American jobs, when the source (their own unions) are the main driving force. I live in a right to work state and love it. There are very few unions around here. I work at the ONLY non-union Boeing plant and also one of the most profitable divisions. They have tried 3 times (back in the 80's-90's) to get the UAW in here but have failed miserably each time. Yeh, like Boeing, GM, Chrysler etc really need employee representation. Back when you had sweat shops and child labor, yeh, unions helped, but that crap doesn't happen in today's modern industries and if by chance it does, it should be handle on a case by case basis. IMO, unions (legal mafia) and the thugs associated with them need to disappear from America before they bring down the whole country.

My cousin and his wife both work for Chrysler. They only go to work about 2/3rds of the year, the rest of the time they are "retooling this or that" and are home collecting 95% of their pay. They both make between $35-$40/hr. 1 installs the rear bumper, 1 installs driver side rear tire. WTF? $35-$40/hr for that. I think the going rate in Mexico is $4/day to install a bumper.

These people are so stupid. Just by giving up their union card they would get get a 10% raise by eliminating their union dues.

[Howard]

Unions for government employees should be illegal. They pay dues to support the politians that approve their raises. This is why we are in the mess we are in. They should take the Regan approach - fire every single public employee and let them bid to get their jobs back. The lowest ones win. No more pensions, let them have a 401k like everyone else. Government jobs should pay less than private sector jobs, not more - it should be the job of last resort not the most desireable one. As for teachers, end tenure!

Heck with unemployment at between 8-10% as reported (higher in reality) it will be very easy to fill theses jobs with quality workers if the ones that have them now don't want them for less money than they are getting now. Stop the gravy train that we all pay for.

[rjwarner]

The preceding posts mirror my own views on this situation. However, with all of the media attention on the protesters....you would think that the pro union folks were the majority.

It is unfortunate, that I tend to keep my opinion to myself. It is time that the majority is heard, not just the opinion of the protesters.

[rbh]

Let me play a bit of the devils advocate role.

First, I'm not pro union in a meaningful way. I do think they are out of control, and think its ridiculous the things that have to be bargained for. Public safety, cops and fireman, are absolutely out of control here in MA. State cops get paid like CEO's, work few hours, and retire at 50.

That said, there is some need for them simply because local government and people that work for them involve just too many people who know each other, where things other than job performance can and would come in play when deciding who gets what. I could see people being canned just to make room for friends or family. This isn't an issue in the private sector, but is real in the public, local sector.

The issue of pensions is a hot one. The answer isn't to put them on a 401k plan though. That is proving to be a failure, and will continue to show itself as such as this generation retires and has little in the way of income. Professionally managed defined benefit plans are a much better idea. The issue with the public ones is they aren't contributing enough, the retirement age is too young for many like cops and fireman, and there are too many ways to game the system. Fix what is broken, don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

I get a kick out of the mention of tenure for teachers. It affords them no more protection than for any other public employee, which is simply that they can't be fired without cause.

[Adamski]

... The answer isn't to put them on a 401k plan though. That is proving to be a failure, and will continue to show itself as such as this generation retires and has little in the way of income. Professionally managed defined benefit plans are a much better idea. The issue with the public ones is they aren't contributing enough, the retirement age is too young for many like cops and fireman, and there are too many ways to game the system. Fix what is broken, don't throw out the baby with the bath water...

rbh,

There is nothing wrong with a properly structured 401k plan. Sure, the value of these holdings can and will rise and fall as the economy rises and falls. That doesn't mean these are necessarily bad investments though. If one does not know how to manage investing in stocks and bonds, he has the option of investing in index or managed mutual funds that invest in stocks and bonds. The main thing to know is that you don't suddenly cash out everything at the bottom of a crash unless you also plan to repurchase other assets that are also at bottom-feeding prices.

My own mutual funds are at an all time high value today and I haven't added any cash to them since about 2001. Sure they went way down in value during the 2008/2009 recession but they've totally recovered those losses now. I don't worry about what stock to buy or when to sell it. I leave those decisions up to the fund managers. I merely decide where to invest the money that the funds generate each year in the form of interest, dividends and capital gains. In other words, I decide when and how many additional shares of certain funds I will buy during the year using that self-generated money that came out of the funds at the end of the prior year. It's so easy, even a caveman could do it.

[rbh]

Adamski, you are 100% right, nothing wrong with a well designed 401k....assuming the participant is qualified to handle their own money. The sad truth is that it has no been proven they aren't. I spend 10 plus years as an exec for two of the largest fund companies (fidelity being one) managing 401k plans for large corps. You would be saddened to see how bad off people are going to be. Most have no idea how to handle asset allocation, take loans and hardship withdrawals, and are too conservative. It will truly be a mess. I'm not the chairman of a retirement board for a local municipality; we manage a 200 million portfolio, and are ahead of where we were when the crap hit the fan. The average 'retail' investor simply can't say the same.

[CanCanCase]

...assuming the participant is qualified to handle their own money. The sad truth is that it has no been proven they aren't....
Gotta disagree here... The sad truth is that there are governments, fund managers and unions who firmly believe that I am not capable of managing my own money and future and that I "need" those selfsame organizations "to protect me from myself."

It may be considered a "harsh" outlook, but if someone mucks up their own retirement, they have nothing to blame but themselves. Everyone needs to have the freedom to chose their own path - I can do it myself; I need someone to manage for me; or even, what retirement? Spend it all until I'm dead! It's not a government or union's place to tell me I'm right or wrong UNLESS I SO CHOOSE.

- Case

[rbh]

Case, I'm with you, but the fact that you have been successful in business tells me that you are the type that would manage your retirement well. The vast majority of the public isn't qualified to do so, and hasn't. The stats prove it out. We all though the addition of 'advice' to 401k plans was going to fix it. It didn't. The sad truth is, they have screwed it up....and these people who retire with 43k in savings will be looking to the government for help.

My only point is, for the same dollars of of their pocket, they will get a much better result in a well designed, professionally managed defined benefit plan.

[Adamski]

rbh,

I have to wonder if the problem is so much in the management of the investment or in the management of the funds withdrawn from the 401k in the initial years of retirement. I have a brother-in-law who paid virtually no attention while working as his employer fully funded his 401k. Come retirement, he soon discovered that he had more money than he ever dreamed of. How he didn't notice this money while he was still working is beyond me, but I digress. So he starts taking money out of his 401k to live on and decides he is so rich that he should give some to each of his 2 grown kids as well. Well, I think you can see where his retirement is going to end up. Some people just don't know how to handle money except from paycheck to paycheck.

[rbh]

Unfortunately, that's often repeated adamski. They have to not allow people access to the money....as draconian as it sounds. But they created what should be a good product, then started allowing loans, hardship withdrawals....and then, when you combine it with people having no clue what an appropriate asset allocation is....you have what is coming, which is a crisis.

My dad was a truck driver, teamsters, with a pension. Nothing great, but I shudder at what we'd have had if he was responsible for investing his own money and not touching it. ugghh.

[MrMachine]

Gotta disagree here... The sad truth is that there are governments, fund managers and unions who firmly believe that I am not capable of managing my own money and future and that I "need" those selfsame organizations "to protect me from myself."

It may be considered a "harsh" outlook, but if someone mucks up their own retirement, they have nothing to blame but themselves. Everyone needs to have the freedom to chose their own path - I can do it myself; I need someone to manage for me; or even, what retirement? Spend it all until I'm dead! It's not a government or union's place to tell me I'm right or wrong UNLESS I SO CHOOSE.

- Case

Well said....I totally agree Case.

[STOUT]

[QUOTE=rbh;54995]Let me play a bit of the devils advocate role.

First, I'm not pro union in a meaningful way. I do think they are out of control, and think its ridiculous the things that have to be bargained for. Public safety, cops and fireman, are absolutely out of control here in MA. State cops get paid like CEO's, work few hours, and retire at 50.

RBH and everyone else;

Utah is a right to work state. With that said I have the same feelings. Way out of control these unions.
Let me tell you about Firefighters. Yes they provide a very valuable service. Yet when I see them demonstrating about more pay I really get upset. What a bunch of cry babies.

The average FF only has to work, depending on what schedule is used, 10 to 12 days per month. Yes, some of them are 24 to 48 hour shifts. Yet they have many days until their next shift. Again depending which system they use. They will tell you how many calls they have been on and how much lack of sleep they get and how hard they work. All that is true.
However they will not tell you about their down times. During those times they have training, drills, eating sleeping, watching TV, exercising, washing their hair, cooking, playing games, searching the internet, talking on the phone, planning vacations, etc, etc,. All while they are being paid by all you tax payers. They are not working constantly like your employees do " that if they have time to lean they have time to clean". Yes FF have a lot of time to lean, or relax in reclining chairs or sleeping or what ever.
Many of them have other jobs on their days off that also bring in a good amount of $. They also get tremendous overtime pay.

Many of the full time FF are members of the union. They picket like there is no tomorrow. They have more greed in them than the overall sense of being of service to their communities. Yet they want all the praise like they are there for you.

They also can retire after 20 years in the service with some very healthy savings and all along having some of the best benefits in the world.

Why do they not want to give an inch? yet all the way our attendants earn considerably less then them and have little if none benefits.

Yes I know first hand of which I speak and I am constantly in disagreements with those of my association. No I am not a member of their or any union. However I am on a city fire department. I see my own colleges not caring at all for the average taxpayer.

I hope things change real soon. Go get em Wisconsin and New Jersey!

[ldm]

"...tenure for teachers. It affords them no more protection than for any other public employee, which is simply that they can't be fired without cause.[/QUOTE]"


It has been widely reported that NYC has Teachers that for one reason or another are unfit to teach in a classroom setting, but cannot be fired due to their Union contracts. They are rrequired to show for work in the rubber rooms and are at liberty to do as they please. It was reported that they even stay past retirement age to increase their retirement benefits....all on the taxpayers dime (or Dollar in Larry's case).

[laundry8me]

Take the nikkei index below for instance. The investors in that index have, so far, been waiting over 21 years just to get back to even. They are still 72% off the 1990 all time high! How many investors in that index do you imagine think they are smart, prudent and wise for taking the advise, "invest for the "long term"?
Investing is not a no brainer. It takes good luck in timing. It is not unusual to have 20 - 30 year bull & bear cycles. The investors lucky enough to start investing at the start of a 20 year bull cycle imagine themselves very smart, but the unlucky one who starts investing a couple years before the beginning of a 20 or 30 year bear cycle probably imagines himself not so smart as he continues to regularly put money in the index going into 25 years, with a fantasy retirement age looming closer and closer that he prudently planned all those decades ago. Imagine an investor reaching a point at, say 30 years old, where he/she feels there is disposable income to invest in the nikkei in 1988. That person regularly puts money in it for the long term. It is now 2011, the person is now 53 years old and looking at this chart. What does the long term mean for this investor?

[laundry8me]

Larry,

When you consider the devaluation of the dollar since 2000 are your investments still at an all time high?

The inflation calculator shows we need to knock 27.9% off todays numbers to come up with the real money value since the 2000 market high. By my calculations the DOW needs to be at 14,994 to get back to where it was on Jan. 14, 2000, when taking inflation, ($ devaluation) into account. We aren't there yet and may not get back to those 2000 DJIA highs for another decade or more, especially with inflation/devaluation accelerating. Who knows?

[laundry8me]

The right wing establishment has always relentlessly fought to destroy all the unions from the unions inception. They have never eased up in this fight. They have always viewed it as a long term battle, along with turning this country into a fascist state. Fascism being the close partnership of govt. and big corporations, with govt. controlled by the corporations. The Italians invented it during WW1. This country didn't have a middle class before the formation of unions. We wouldn't have a middle class today, had unions not become part of the American fabric. Without a middle class there will not be enough people making the kind of income it takes to support our economic system. Simple concepts. Simple facts. There is no getting around the demise of our entire economic system if the unions are crushed and swept away into history. The influence of unions goes well beyond the union membership. The negotiations unions fight for provide a wage and benefit foundation for a hell of a lot of non-union employees wages and benefits. Anybody that doesn't understand that is being fooled by smoke and mirrors pushed by the right wing media that controls most of the news outlets across the country.

If you don't believe the right wing has a firm grip on the media, just take a look at only one right wing media giants holdings: Rupert Murdoch.

"Rupert Murdoch was listed three times in the Time 100 as one among the most influential people in the world. He is ranked 13th most powerful person in the world in the 2010 Forbes' The World's Most Powerful People list."

He owns, The Star, The New York Post, The Wall Street Journal, The San Antonio Express, 20th Century Fox, Foc Brodcasting Company, MCI Communications, The Weekly Standard, Fox News Channel, 34% stake in Direct TV and the list goes on...
He is an extremely influential powerful rich man that can get an audience with any congressman and has huge influence over FCC rulings.

The long term agenda of the right wing leadership has always been to create an indentured servant society fighting amongst themselves for the scraps thrown to them by the elite 1 or 2% who control most of the wealth and power, mostly through giant corporations and govt. partners.

Do some unions abuse their power? Yes. Have some unions become to powerful for their own good? Probably. Does that mean the entire system should be destroyed, as the right wing establishment is pushing for? Only if you are advocating for the demise of the middle class and the entire American economic system as it functions today.

I mean, really, do you advocate for the demise of every single entity that becomes a little to powerful? Let's make a list of a few of the powerful entities that abuse their power.
The top 500 Corporations in the US certainly make that list.
Many of the police forces across the country fit the bill.
Most of the leadership members of the state and US Congress.
Many county and municipality govt. leaders abuse power.

Hey, I have an idea. Let's destroy them all and sink into a Somalia like state.
Of course our laundromats would go bye bye in a system like that.

[Adamski]

Larry,

When you consider the devaluation of the dollar since 2000 are your investments still at an all time high?

The inflation calculator shows we need to knock 27.9% off todays numbers to come up with the real money value since the 2000 market high. By my calculations the DOW needs to be at 14,994 to get back to where it was on Jan. 14, 2000, when taking inflation, ($ devaluation) into account. We aren't there yet and may not get back to those 2000 DJIA highs for another decade or more, especially with inflation/devaluation accelerating. Who knows?

Gary,

As we all know, inflation takes a bite out of any investment be it CDs, stock, bonds, mutual funds, etc. The only inflation-proof investment I can think of is a Saving's Bond that adjusts for inflation.

Remember, investments are seldom stagnant over time. That is, Mr Investor tends to move his money into and out of various types of investments over time. He changes his asset allocation as he ages. When he retires, he usually withdraws cash from his investments gradually so that the bulk of his investments are still growing or earning interest or shrinking (in the case of a bear market).

The long running Niki bear market is an exception rather than the rule. So far, in this country, bear markets average a few years in length. Even if we did have a bear market that just went on and on for decades, that doesn't mean Mr Investor would keep shoveling money into it. There would be other options that would look more appealing and he would probably start moving his money into those investments.

Another thing to consider when viewing an index chart, is that the chart is merely a reflection of an index's price over a period of time. Such a chart does not show the dividends that are paid out by those securities each quarter or so. Those dividend payouts are real money going to real shareholders.

So, in summary, investing in stock, bonds or mutual funds does involve risk. Nobody should invest in these asset classes unless they understand those risks and are able to accept the bear markets as well as they accept the bull markets. Such an investor is willing to monitor his investments on a regular basis (at least monthly) and also follow the markets enough to have a good feel about where things are going and why. For example, during 2010, I funneled about $40,000 into my Energy fund. (This money came from dividends and capital gains earned by my mutual funds during the prior year.) So far this year, my Energy fund is my best performing fund. So, it appears that increasing the size of that fund last year will help me to earn extra money from it this year. That's what I'm talking about when I say, "Have a feel for where things are going."

[ldm]

laundry8me: Go back and look at my 03-05-2011 post for my opinion...I don't think banishing Unions is the mark...We could argue till death the issues of the left and right media and it's reporting habits, along with what groups the left and right are closely tied to (in addition to capitalism).

Our family small business was a union shop until the Union decided to fine us $2,500 for having 3 plumbers work on a "black Friday" (the friday's the union workers did not have to work as per their agreement). A builder called us late Thursday and asked if we could get some plumbers to top out a few buildings on Friday...we had some men in the shop that volunteered. They were paid extra per the Union agreement and the builder agreed to cover the costs. All went well, the guys were happy to have the work, the customer was happy...then the Union came back a few weeks later complaining that we notified them Monday of this event, so they had no chance to approve the Black Friday work. We explained we left a VM Thursday because they were closed. This made no difference to them, they fined us $2,500 for not getting their permission. We made clear what had happened and told them we would pay the fine if they insisted, but we would quit the union. They said pay the fine and do what we want. We paid, and quit the union. We had an open shop set up in two weeks (doing mostly Govt Davis-Bacon work at prevailing wage, so no problem getting qualified men, some out of the hall).

So we were middle class when we were a Union shop for 10 years, and we were middle class for the 25 years we were an open / merit shop, and we are middle class now. I think middle class has a lot to do with the individual and not so much the unions. Three words: Look to Detroit.

I will also not buy a GM or Dodge product again, not because of the Union, but because I pay substantial taxes, and I don't do business with people that go Bankrupt owing me money....just a policy.

In some industries, Unions are shooting themselves in the foot by demanding wages and benefits that leave no profit for the owners...owners go to China and ship their goods back, which I think is BS, but what are they going to do when push comes to shove. Businesses that include the auto industry sector.

[rbh]

In my city, whats maddening is the 'past practice' argument used successfully by the public safety unions. They start doing something that is never agreed to or bargained for, and if they can get away with it long enough, it can't be taken away. We've fought it in court and lose every time. You just can't win.

My only point on the tenure thing is that it is not more easy to fire a NY cop or fireman as the teachers in the rubber room. Its all very frustrating.

Heading up the local retirement board, i could tell you tales of abuse of the disability system that would make you all puke.

[STOUT]

Gary;

About your post on the unions and middle class and the right wing power people.
Would you allow you employees at your mat to form a union? Would you support them and entertain talks between you and them for better pay and benefits?
If unions are good in your opinion, are they good in every type of business?

[laundry8me]

Gary,



Another thing to consider when viewing an index chart, is that the chart is merely a reflection of an index's price over a period of time. Such a chart does not show the dividends that are paid out by those securities each quarter or so. Those dividend payouts are real money going to real shareholders.



Larry,

You are partially correct. The S&P 500 index is one of the few stock indexes that does include dividends in it's calculus. So not only does it give a more accurate picture of total returns, but, because of the greater range of companies in the index compared to the DJIA, it is far superior in its reflection of the general stock market. So let's look at that index.

The S&P 500 index closed at 1520.77 on Sept. 1, 2000. Today it closed at 1310.13. It must close at 1945.06 to get back to even with the 2000 high, when taking inflation into consideration. It is 41.8% underwater from the 2000 high, now 10.5 years later.

My point, maybe not conveyed all that well, was the long term that is so freely tossed around by Wall Street is not always friendly to an investor. It depends on the time frame that the investor starts investing. It is a myth that long bear markets are rare. Check out the chart below. From around 1963 to 1983 the S&P 500 went nowhere. It took 20 years to get back to even.
Somewhere around March 1999 the S&P 500 was where it is today. That is 11 years with it going nowhere, not even considering dollar devaluation. I fear this market has 5 - 10 more years to go before we get back to the inflation adjusted highs of 2000. But, putting my speculation aside, we are still currently experiencing a long bear market. That is 2 long bear markets over the course of 37 years, (first one started in 1963, second one started in 2000). I wouldn't consider that a rare occurrence by any stretch of my imagination.

I think you might agree that most people don't have the skills to invest in stocks safely and prudently. They simply don't have a clue about investing and don't invest the time and energy to learn, and those are the ones smart enough to do it!

You are a rare breed when it comes to investing. You have skills far beyond the average investor. You also seem to have the mindset required to not panic and sell at the bottom, stay out scared until it starts hitting new highs and then buy in a panic because your the only one on the block not reaping the rewards of new market highs.

I am guessing you would also never buy real-estate hitting new highs, as so many people did, including very smart people.

[laundry8me]

Idm,


A middle class didn't exist before unions. The factory owners at the time were treating the working class like animals. Children were putting in 12 plus hour days to help support the families so they wouldn't starve out on the street.

I understand that unions are guilty of abusing power. But if we destroyed every person, group, company, whatever that abused power there wouldn't be much left. Every government on earth abuses it's powers, but where would we be without any govt. whatsoever? Well, check out Somalia.

Reform is always necessary when a group becomes to powerful and full of themselves. But, the right wing leaders , indisputably want to flat out destroy all unions. It is not a secret. They are proud of the objective and have been working at it for decades.

Your families problems with the plumbers union were probably resolved the same way I would have done it. But, that isn't cause to crush and destroy all the unions in existence. You don't disband the police force because you or someone you know experience police abuse. You don't disband the banks and Wall Street because of the massive thefts perpetrated upon all of us taxpayers by those robber barons. You don't disband the insurance companies because of the massive fraud they are constantly involved in, (We are regularly fighting Aetna to get the reimbursements they owe us).


You said,
"So we were middle class when we were a Union shop for 10 years, and we were middle class for the 25 years we were an open / merit shop, and we are middle class now. I think middle class has a lot to do with the individual and not so much the unions."

You were probably middle class because of all the decades the unions across the country fought to get middle class wages and benefits for you, your plumbers and everybody else that reaped the collateral benefits of those fights. You were probably middle class because the unions fought for wages that permeated out into the non-union workers world that had to compete with the union fought wage levels. The unions raised the wages and benefits bar for every working class person in this country, union or not.


BTW, my father was a pipe-fitter for a small shop in Montana. He became a superintendent for them and worked on their commercial projects.

I hope I am not coming off in a harsh way, because I am not intending to. This is a passionate subject with all of us and I love passion. ;)

[ldm]

laundry8me: No doubt unions had a purpose and workers benefited from thier efforts in the beginning. It is unfortunate that with power, so many organizations graduate to corruption...from the small entities to the large governments. I stand by my original position that something needs to be done here and now. Leveling the paying field, firing those that have earned the pink slip, getting rid of corruption and protection for those not carrying their weight is a good start (and not an effort to crush unions). If the current costs of services are not brought under control, and the abuses are not dealt with, the problems our children and grandchildren will face could easily be expotentially worse. I do not take exception to your positions, we have some common ground and some serious disagreements, but we are both entitled to our opinions.

We are middle class because my father, a depression era child, who came from a very poor background in Denver, decided his family would not endure the same lifestyle he did growing up. He joined the service out of High School and between WWII, and Korea, he started a family. My Mother was a blessing. Besides their regular jobs, my parents started a business in 1959and 12 to 18 hour days 6 to 7 days a week was the norm, we kids started helping at 10 years old and were taught so many valuable lessons over the years. My parents were truely self made people, and they took the time to guide us in the right direction. We now endeavor to pass opportunities and what we have learned on to our kids. With hard work and some good luck now and then, I think our kids will be OK...all due to what our parents started.

I was born a Republican, and for good reason, will die a Republican. That said, I have more respect for Democrats than I do for those Independents, who gave up on their respective Republican or Democratic party instead of trying to rid the bad and improve the party thru real time education, involvement and voting. Just an opinion based on my experiences.

[MrMachine]

Gary,

So, in summary, investing in stock, bonds or mutual funds does involve risk. Nobody should invest in these asset classes unless they understand those risks and are able to accept the bear markets as well as they accept the bull markets. Such an investor is willing to monitor his investments on a regular basis (at least monthly) and also follow the markets enough to have a good feel about where things are going and why. For example, during 2010, I funneled about $40,000 into my Energy fund. (This money came from dividends and capital gains earned by my mutual funds during the prior year.) So far this year, my Energy fund is my best performing fund. So, it appears that increasing the size of that fund last year will help me to earn extra money from it this year. That's what I'm talking about when I say, "Have a feel for where things are going."

Larry,

I too invested in an energy fund which did very well overall this past year, but since this Libya thing the fund has been floundering. You would think an energy fund would be soaring in line with oil prices, but it has not as yet.

[surfflite]

Anybody that doesn't understand that is being fooled by smoke and mirrors pushed by the right wing media that controls most of the news outlets across the country.

Hahaha, now that's a good one. I guess 75% of the nations been fooled by smoke and mirrors then. Looks like our only savior is to unionize.

Please explain to me, in today's workforce, what a union could do for me? Or anyone for that matter.....


Union workers/liberals, free handout, gov't cheese recipients:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/505/babybirdsarehungry.jpg (http://img823.imageshack.us/i/babybirdsarehungry.jpg/)

Non-Union work for your food conservatives:
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/2416/baldeagle.jpg (http://img854.imageshack.us/i/baldeagle.jpg/)

Trying to compare the 2 is impossible. You either contribute to society or you siphon from it.

[Laundry_Mike]

[QUOTE=surfflite;55128]Hahaha, now that's a good one. I guess 75% of the nations been fooled by smoke and mirrors then. Looks like our only savior is to unionize.
Please explain to me, in today's workforce, what a union could do for me? Or anyone for that matter.....

__________________________________________________ __________________________

Take more of your paycheck in the form of dues to support the union mob bosses and the mindless brainwashing of its members on how to think, act, and vote.

[laundry8me]

Gary;

About your post on the unions and middle class and the right wing power people.
Would you allow you employees at your mat to form a union? Would you support them and entertain talks between you and them for better pay and benefits?
If unions are good in your opinion, are they good in every type of business?

I don't think unions are appropriate or needed in every business. But unions are needed for business areas that are particularly hazardous and/or succeptable to widespread employer abuse of employees, where, say the big business has a captive workforce, (mining towns and factory towns for instance). Unions provide a balance to the natural unmitigated greed of big business. Union negotiation success provides a blueprint for non union workers to use and employers of non union workers to use as a sounding board or ruff guide in determining what is fair and possible within their particular walls. I view unions as the other side of the coin from big business. They both are prone to power abuse, but help keep a balance over the long term.

Everything is subject to cycles. No exceptions. Some unions are in the "abusing power" part of the cycle presently, but they will lose some of that power and the pendulum will swing the other direction to the point where they are somewhat ineffective.
In fact, they have been in the process of losing power and cutting benefits and wages for a few years. That is a fact. Healthy change usually takes time, however, most people now want everything done yesterday in this internet age. The process is playing out and, if given the chance will reach an equilibrium. But that isn't good enough for some idealogues. They want to completely destroy all unions. If that goal is achieved I am afraid the middle class will be essentially extinct within one, maybe two generations. We will have a country with 1 or 2% owning 90% of the wealth and the rest of us will be indentured servants. When I say us, I mean the coming generations.

I strongly believe in maintaining opposites in everything. We need a strong right and left minority political movement. The extremes provide the stimulus to the majority middle ground to get them off their butts and act in a balanced way. If you lose one extreme or the other the country starts going off a cliff. The same will be true if the unions are destroyed, imo. The thing is, it is a never ending battle to bring things back into balance. That is just the way it is. It is supposed to be that way. The answer, imo, is to stay in the fight, but don't fight for annihilation of unions, big business, left, right or whatever, fight for balance.

I don't really know what you believe and I am not judging you or anyone else on this board. I am merely trying to communicate my views which are probably not shared by anyone else within the Planetlaundry world. Trying to bring a balance to the conversation, lol.

[Adamski]

Paul,

All of my funds are Vanguard and I have had good success over the past 15 years or so. I used to have Putnam funds but there was some after-hours deals going down (they got caught) and that was the last straw for me. By that time, I already had a couple of Vanguard funds and I quickly pulled all my money out of Putnam and bought more Vanguard.

Vanguard recently started a BB that is limited to "Flagship" (high end) clients and I've been playing around on that a bit recently. I like this BB better though.

[laundry8me]

laundry8me: No doubt unions had a purpose and workers benefited from thier efforts in the beginning. It is unfortunate that with power, so many organizations graduate to corruption...from the small entities to the large governments. I stand by my original position that something needs to be done here and now. Leveling the paying field, firing those that have earned the pink slip, getting rid of corruption and protection for those not carrying their weight is a good start (and not an effort to crush unions). If the current costs of services are not brought under control, and the abuses are not dealt with, the problems our children and grandchildren will face could easily be expotentially worse. I do not take exception to your positions, we have some common ground and some serious disagreements, but we are both entitled to our opinions.

We are middle class because my father, a depression era child, who came from a very poor background in Denver, decided his family would not endure the same lifestyle he did growing up. He joined the service out of High School and between WWII, and Korea, he started a family. My Mother was a blessing. Besides their regular jobs, my parents started a business in 1959and 12 to 18 hour days 6 to 7 days a week was the norm, we kids started helping at 10 years old and were taught so many valuable lessons over the years. My parents were truely self made people, and they took the time to guide us in the right direction. We now endeavor to pass opportunities and what we have learned on to our kids. With hard work and some good luck now and then, I think our kids will be OK...all due to what our parents started.

I was born a Republican, and for good reason, will die a Republican. That said, I have more respect for Democrats than I do for those Independents, who gave up on their respective Republican or Democratic party instead of trying to rid the bad and improve the party thru real time education, involvement and voting. Just an opinion based on my experiences.

Ldm,

I agree that we do have some common ground and some serious disagreements. Thankfully, that is true, because out of it all comes a balance. I grew up listening to my father, a conservative Democrat, debating one of my uncles, a moderate Republican, on the Sunday afternoon gatherings after church. I was probably about 10 or 11 when I became interested in what they were talking about. The debates were always casual and friendly. They liked each other. I learned from those debates at that young age that there can be different opposite views held by reasonable people that probaly won't be resolved but will also not keep them from enjoying the comany of each other. I learned to respect other views from mine and spend energy actually giving consideration to those views.

I grew up in a middle class family because my father was a plumber/pipefitter in a union. He dropped out of school after the 8th grade to help support his recently widowed mother and younger sister. His father, who was a plumber, died in a car accident at a young age, which put the family in a severe financial crunch. My dad became a plumbers apprentice through the connections to his fathers employer shortly after turning 14. He busted his ass to help his mother and sister out and later, after a stint in the army, give us a middleclass lifestyle. He was on his shoulders, because my mother, who was an accountant, came down with multiple sclerosis at the age of 28 and had to quit working. So my father supported the family and took care of mom over the years as her condition worsened. Her medical bills were a hardship but he was able to handle it because he became a superintendent for the shop and with that came high enough wages to make it work. But, before the superintedent position we had a two story chicken house full of chickens that we made a supplemental income from. I learned how to raise chickens and collect eggs to inspect, clean, package and sell to stores by the time I was six. We lived in the country on 3 acres and also had a giant garden, along with fruit trees and berry patches that I and my siblings helped out with every summer. My father came home from work and worked the chicken house nights and saturdays and the garden in the spring summer and fall. It was a huge garden! We canned enough veggies out of it to last us until the next harvest, using them to supplement the fresh store veggie and fruit purchases. I have 4 siblings, so that was a lot of canned goods we went through. Oh, we also had bee hives that produced delicious honey which we preserved. I forgot to mention the rabbits, pigs, two cats and a dog, lol.

I have two uncles that own farms and I started spending part of my summers working on the farm at the age of 12. I learned to do everything from cutting, baling and stacking hay to driving caterpillers and tractors, combines and trucks, milking cows and harvesting grain and applying blacksmith skills using a coal fired forge to fix broken equipment. It was hard work but also a fantasy dreamland for a young kid like me.

Anyway, I too know the value of hard work. I learned it at a young age. As an adult I worked hard and stayed focused to make my commercial photography business succeed over the course of 24 years. I wound up the last 10 years working on accounts that photographers, better then me and famous, would give an arm to get. I was lucky, but also made my luck. I had to because I am not gifted. I traveled all over the world working. South Africa, Kenya, Botswana, Tanzania, Tokyo, Mexico, Paris, the Carribean, Canada, all around this country and other places. I was lucky enough to shoot for the Army account, Wells Fargo and Marlboro in amazing remote locations. My greatest coup was being commissioned to travel around the West shooting landscapes in the four different seasons and also to Argentina four different times to shoot landscapes for Marlboro. For other productions I was responsible for making pictures on some remote Western location with 20 - 30 people standing around waiting for me to tell them what to do to help me make the $100k/day production effort successful at 4 in the morning trying to get a shot set up to catch the pre sunrise glow in the sky with cowboys around a campfire or a stagecoach racing accross a hilltop with the sun ball behind it or a herd of 30 horses being run over a hilltop. Failure wasn't an option, lol.

We are a middleclass family and our two teenage boys are great. My oldest, at 15 years old, last summer would get up on his own, make breakfast and catch a bus to our store to open up at 7am. He ran it on his own for 6 hours until I came in. In order to do this he had to be up at 5:30. He did it twice a week and never missed the bus. It really astonished me.

No, I have never joined a union. I have been self employed most of my adult life and liked it just fine. But, we are all not wired to be self employed and unions play a role in making this country great.

[ldm]

laundry8me: Sounds like some good as well as tough times, along with some very interesting travels. I think we can both give blessings for our parents role in our lives. In the small world department, my Uncle had a chicken farm in Sebastapool for many years with a big swimming pond and a makeshift high dive...never worked on the farm there myself. The story is; His kid invented some sort of red contact lense that made the chickens lay more eggs. He discovered that "red" made them lay more eggs when he only had a red light bulb to replace the burnt out bulb in one of the chicken coops. The chickens in this area were producing more eggs. The cruelty to animal folks bitched big time becasue they said it caused damage to the chickens eyes. Anyway, don't know where that all ended up...long time ago. My younger boy works with us, and my older boy works for the Union in SanFran. I am semi-retired, as retired as I can stand to be, with most the grandkids nearby, the lake and other recreation here in NorCal, no real complaints. I moved to where I would vacation and do most of my work from home at this time. I don't know any self employeed Democrats up here where we live...a rare breed.

[laundry8me]

ldm,

I count myself lucky on a regular basis. My parents and my two farmer uncles, (one Republican, one Democrat), all played a big part in giving me guide posts I have tried to follow throughout my life. Also, living through some early life struggles made me stronger and more prepared for whatever came along later. I like the chicken story. Your cousin's ability to connect the eggs to the light bulb isn't an ability shared by most people. The light bulb really did go off in his head, lol.
Hey, I'll bet if you went down to S.F. you could dig up a few self employed Dems. ;)

If you like, use the links below to check out some of my photography, along with my wife's work, who is also a photographer. We have a stock photo business, which means we take pictures on spec. and sell the rights to use them in the commercial world. Most of our work is with the worlds largest stock photo agency called Getty Images. One of the links is to our website that features Christmas theme pictures. We drag trees, lights, a generator and camera gear on sleds out into the woods on snowshoes in the Cascade Mts and set these shots up. We usually wait until a storm hits that keep most people home, which is our time to hit the road with chains to catch all that beautiful new snow. We also hunt for Christmas homes in the mountains and get photographs of the nice ones.
Oh, our two boys have spent a lot of time in front of our cameras over the years for stock photos. They are paid 10% of our commission if they are in the shot, so they started learning about work from before they could ride a bike, lol.

Our Werran/Ochsner site:
http://www.stockphotosofchristmas.com/artist.asp?ArtistID=19528&AKey=STK6SYEK

our images on the Getty Images website:
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?assettype=image&artist=Werran/Ochsner

[apartment_guy]

We have a stock photo business, which means we take pictures on spec. and sell the rights to use them in the commercial world. Most of our work is with the worlds largest stock photo agency called Getty Images. One of the links is to our website that features Christmas theme pictures. We drag trees, lights, a generator and camera gear on sleds out into the woods on snowshoes in the Cascade Mts and set these shots up. We usually wait until a storm hits that keep most people home, which is our time to hit the road with chains to catch all that beautiful new snow.[/url]

Your work is simply stunning!

Like... really really awesome! I think I might have to buy some....

Check it out folks..

http://www.stockphotosofchristmas.com/artist.asp?ArtistID=19528&AKey=STK6SYEK

BTW, for the past forty years I've been a professional photographer, but I grew up on a chickent farm :-)

[ldm]

laundry8me: Nice photo's (now I have to get the kids and go snow boarding), nice store, interesting way to estate plan and get the boys involved at an early age. I try to stay clear of San Fran, Portland and Seattle...the crowds, and I apparently wreak of Republican so people flock to debate...OK, sometimes I instigate. Our older boy usually gets out of SF and up to visit once in the winter to snow board and once in the sumer to enjoy the lake with some of their visiting family for a week or so.

[laundry8me]

Your work is simply stunning!

Like... really really awesome! I think I might have to buy some....

Check it out folks..

http://www.stockphotosofchristmas.com/artist.asp?ArtistID=19528&AKey=STK6SYEK

BTW, for the past forty years I've been a professional photographer, but I grew up on a chickent farm :-)

Thank you, apartment_guy!
I'll bet you can appreciate what goes into making those Christmas photos, since you are a veteran professional photographer. After the financial fallout in the fall of 2008 our stock photo income plummeted about 80% and has never recovered. It happened fast. In Oct. 08 we were humming along with big Christmas stock sales, following great general image sales numbers the previous 2008 months and then the Nov. "perfect storm" hits, with sales falling off a cliff. End of game. Advertising budgets were crushed, magazines and companies simply disappeared as we entered a new era.

I owned a 6-plex for 10 years. It was a great investment, with total return of 25% per year over those 10 years, including capital gains. I bought it just as the rental market was recovering in Seattle in the mid 90s and the cap rates were favorable for buyers.

Chicken farm, eh? You must know a thing or two about incubators and lye. ;)

[laundry8me]

laundry8me: Nice photo's (now I have to get the kids and go snow boarding), nice store, interesting way to estate plan and get the boys involved at an early age.

Thank you ldm!

I try to stay clear of San Fran, Portland and Seattle...the crowds, and I apparently wreak of Republican so people flock to debate...OK, sometimes I instigate. Our older boy usually gets out of SF and up to visit once in the winter to snow board and once in the sumer to enjoy the lake with some of their visiting family for a week or so.

Hey, imagine me on Marlboro shoots with a bunch of cowboys in Wyoming! We generally stayed away from political discussions, lol. But, we got along great and had many wonderful conversations over the years on stunning ranches around the west about everything but politics. I am a lefty, but because I grew up in Montana in the country, I am a redneck lefty and not much of a P.C. guy. It was always great to see those guys and we had a lot of laughs.

Our family heli-skied out of Whistler, BC for my wife's birthday a couple years ago. It was amazing. Fat skis and deep powder. Heli-boarding would be incredible. Just need to make sure the conditions are right, which means you need to wait for a good storm and jump on it. You are semi retired so that could work for you. A friend of mine owns a first class heli-ski outfit not far from you, if you are interested PM me and I will give you details and introduction to him.

[ldm]

Thank you ldm!

I am a redneck lefty and not much of a P.C. guy. It was always great to see those guys and we had a lot of laughs.

Our family heli-skied out of Whistler, BC for my wife's birthday a couple years ago. It was amazing. Fat skis and deep powder. Heli-boarding would be incredible. Just need to make sure the conditions are right, which means you need to wait for a good storm and jump on it. You are semi retired so that could work for you. A friend of mine owns a first class heli-ski outfit not far from you, if you are interested PM me and I will give you details and introduction to him.

laundry9me: Hey, a red neck lefty with not much use for PC that can hang with the Marlboro bunch...pretty sure those would be more scarce in SF...you are starting to compartmentalize yourself. I am estimating there are maybe 3 to 6 of you left in the Western USA.

I am more of a South Tahoe for a week or two, and a hand full of trips up to the local Mount Shasta an hour away to snowboard. But, appreciate the offer to get me in touch with your guy.

[laundry8me]

laundry9me: Hey, a red neck lefty with not much use for PC that can hang with the Marlboro bunch...pretty sure those would be more scarce in SF...you are starting to compartmentalize yourself. I am estimating there are maybe 3 to 6 of you left in the Western USA.

I am more of a South Tahoe for a week or two, and a hand full of trips up to the local Mount Shasta an hour away to snowboard. But, appreciate the offer to get me in touch with your guy.

ldm,

I have been in your part of the country a couple different times for work. Susanville and Red Bluff. It is beautiful.

I guess I better stop hijacking this thread...