Rate of Water

[James2011]

My store is in the big shopping center, and they have water meters individually assigned to to each tenants, and landlord sends water bills to each tenants monthly.
On the water bill from shopping center mgmt company shows the Rate of water cost, for example, 0.00xxxxxx something, which tells how much need to pay depending on water usage x rate.
I am pretty much sure that landlord doesn't cheating tenants regarding the water bill.
But the thing is City sends total water bill to landlord and then, landlord send their bills to tenant, so we tenant can't know the rate directly from City water dept.
These two rate should be equal same.
Can I just trust landlord's bill?

Jim

[KJ]

Ask the Landlord for a copy of the City bill for confirmation before you pay it.

[James2011]

Ask the Landlord for a copy of the City bill for confirmation before you pay it.

Instead of Landload, can I ask City what the rate is?
thx.

[Adamski]

James,

Water/sewage rates are public information. You should simply visit your local water authority and ask for a current rate sheet.

I would not be surprised if your landlord was charging a higher rate and making a profit off the reselling of water and sewage. Is it legal? Probably.

[James2011]

James,

Water/sewage rates are public information. You should simply visit your local water authority and ask for a current rate sheet.

I would not be surprised if your landlord was charging a higher rate and making a profit off the reselling of water and sewage. Is it legal? Probably.

Is it legal, Really??

Jim.

[apartment_guy]

Water/sewage rates are public information.

Our water rates are published on the City's website.

[CanCanCase]

...I would not be surprised if your landlord was charging a higher rate and making a profit off the reselling of water and sewage. Is it legal? Probably.

Is it legal, Really??

Each municipality will be different regarding "profiteering." In Alaska, we paid the city rent for boat moorage for our boat house. Then, since the boat house covers 2 slips, we rented a covered boat slip to a friend for the winter and kept our boat out of the weather at the same time. Renting (subletting, really) the slip wasn't illegal, as long as we didn't turn a noticeable profit by re-selling the City's property or resource. I used to have to take a year's worth of water and electric bills for the boathouse in to the City to prove that slip rental + utilities wasn't less than what we charged for rent. (Then the City gets to collect sales tax on the rental fee, but that's a whole other debate!)

Here in OR, I believe a landlord CAN turn a profit on water/sewer utilities, but it varies from one water district to another. No landlord in their right mind would want to get caught doing this, or I doubt they'd be able to rent their spaces with that type of reputation. All landlords I've negotiated with are always quite willing to provide copies of the utility bills for payment of my share.

In Jim's situation, I wouldn't be concerned with the RATE being charged as that's all public information. I would be worried that the landlord isn't re-billing me for actual units used... Let's say they have 10 units rented. Should the yarn store that uses zero water pay 10% of the bill right along with the laundromat which probably uses about 90% of the mall's total? Unless there's something in your lease to the contrary, I don't think it would be out of line to request a copy of the full bill along with your "sub-billing" just to verify the UNITS and RATE being paid for.

-Case

[KJ]

All of the properties in our area get separate water bills.

When I say separate, I mean 1 bill for each meter but they all go to the
"Owners of the Properties"

So our strip mall gets 6 separate bills.

The owners of the properties are responsible for the water bills.
If they are not paid the amounts are levied back on the property tax bills.

My landlord just gives me a copy of the bill from the City
which has it listed as water meter XXX which matches mine in the laundromat.

[James2011]

The below is the answer from landlord, do you think it makes sense?:
( my question is city water rate is 0.01478, but landlord's rate is 0.0176332, my mat has own water meter)
------------------------------------------------------------------
I am in receipt of your e-mail regarding your water/sewer bills generated for Account #xxxxxxx at the xx Laundry. I understand your confusion when viewing the rates based on a single user (0.00648 for water and 0.0083 for sewer = 0.01478), but the property, xxx Shopping Center, receives multiple invoices from city and no single invoice is traceable to an individual tenant. The rate of .0176332 is calculated by adding up the total charges received by the property from city for the period and then dividing that total charge by the total gallons used in the period.



The calculated average rate is then used to billed every tenant in the property using the Tenant’s “Billed Gallons” as a variable and the Average Rate as a constant. That is why for the period 9/13/2011 to 10/19/2011 – xx Laundry used xxxxx gallons billed at the average rate of $0.0176332 for a generated invoice of $xxxx.



Please let me know if you have any additional questions regarding this charge or the method for calculating the Average Rate.



Sincerely,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Howard]

Something does not make sense here. Does each tenant have their own meter or are some shared. Also does the sum of the individual meters equal the total he is claiming, perhaps there is some error here. Something obviously does not make sense. If you have a meter then your payment should be that usage times the city rate. Other question, do all the meters get read on the same date? You might want to run this by the city and see if this practice is even legal.

[James2011]

Something does not make sense here. Does each tenant have their own meter or are some shared. Also does the sum of the individual meters equal the total he is claiming, perhaps there is some error here. Something obviously does not make sense. If you have a meter then your payment should be that usage times the city rate. Other question, do all the meters get read on the same date? You might want to run this by the city and see if this practice is even legal.

My mat has seperate meter, but some tenants has their own, but some shares common meters, so total meter in center is 5 meters.
some small sized tenants are grouped and charged Qusrterly, me and some big tenants gets the bill from landlord monthly.

my opinion is all tenants pay the water bill if landlord uses water from common water outlet for his own purpose and if somewhere water leaking, this is unfair, as Howard said, tenants should pay the amount we used with the city rate, not the landlord's rate, right?
if I file complaint to court for this issue, can I win?

[Howard]

Don't go that route. Just tell the landlord that you have your own water meter and either want to pay your own bill or compensate him based on the city rate based on your usage and see where that goes.

[KJ]

Yes, you are paying approx 19.3% higher rate to the landlord.

If you have a separate meter by all means it can be trace and billed for just what you use.

You should not be paying for anyone else's water unless there is a common area that uses water by any and all customers of the shopping center like public bathrooms.
Another area which the landlord could charge you for is common area water usage like landscape watering, pressure washing, etc.
Those usages are usually divided among the tenants to pay.

I now have the city bill me directly instead of the landlord.
I'm in a small town and small strip mall so it might not work for you.

Last thing. Read your lease. A good commercial lease usually covers everything like this.

[Adamski]

...(Mr Landlord's response: I understand your confusion when viewing the rates based on a single user (0.00648 for water and 0.0083 for sewer = 0.01478), but the property, xxx Shopping Center, receives multiple invoices from city and no single invoice is traceable to an individual tenant. The rate of .0176332 is calculated by adding up the total charges received by the property from city for the period and then dividing that total charge by the total gallons used in the period...

James,

I believe Mr Landlord is saying that there is a city rate for the water used and a city rate for the sewage used. In addition, there are also charges such a Readiness To Serve fees, Tap-in fees or Trunkage fees. These fees can be substantial and are included as a separate line item on a water/sewer bill or perhaps even billed separately.

Mr Landlord takes his total bill and divides it by the total units used to get his total cost per unit. Then he bills each tennant at this rate for each unit used according to each tennant's meter.

When the shopping plaza was built, the city may have charged the center $100,000 or more to supply water and sewage service. This is often called a Trunkage fee or a Readiness To Serve fee. This fee is commonly billed monthly over a period of 10 or 20 years to make it easier on the developer. This is not a fee for water or sewage. It is designed to pay for the water/sewer infrastructure. This fee is commonly paid by the person actually using the water and sewer infrastructure which means you and I and everyone else on this BB.

[Howard]

What Larry says is true, but the tenant should not be responsible for the connection fee that the plaza is paying over 10 to 20 years unless that is specifically spelled out in the terms of the lease.

[James2011]

What Larry says is true, but the tenant should not be responsible for the connection fee that the plaza is paying over 10 to 20 years unless that is specifically spelled out in the terms of the lease.

Here is the copy of my lease regarding utilities, please review and let me know, thanks:

Lease contract:

11. UTILITIES. Tenant shall be responsible for and shall promptly pay all water, rent, gas, electricity and other utility bills ( including sewer charges, tap-ins, hookup and connection charges) for utilities used or consumed in the Premises as the same shall become due commencing on the first to occur of (i) the date Tenant occupies, or (ii) the Rent Commencement Date….

[James2011]

James,

I believe Mr Landlord is saying that there is a city rate for the water used and a city rate for the sewage used. In addition, there are also charges such a Readiness To Serve fees, Tap-in fees or Trunkage fees. These fees can be substantial and are included as a separate line item on a water/sewer bill or perhaps even billed separately.

Mr Landlord takes his total bill and divides it by the total units used to get his total cost per unit. Then he bills each tennant at this rate for each unit used according to each tennant's meter.

When the shopping plaza was built, the city may have charged the center $100,000 or more to supply water and sewage service. This is often called a Trunkage fee or a Readiness To Serve fee. This fee is commonly billed monthly over a period of 10 or 20 years to make it easier on the developer. This is not a fee for water or sewage. It is designed to pay for the water/sewer infrastructure. This fee is commonly paid by the person actually using the water and sewer infrastructure which means you and I and everyone else on this BB.

I think something wrong in what you said,
Landlord's rate comes from [total billed $$]/[total water usage].

[Adamski]

I think something wrong in what you said,
Landlord's rate comes from [total billed $$]/[total water usage].

James,

It seems to me that Mr Landlord receives one or more bills per month from the city. These bills include:

1. Water cost per the city's water rate.
2. Sewer cost per the city's sewer rate.
3. Trunkage or other fees per the city's charge for providing the water service.
4. Readiness-To-Serve fees per the city's charge for providing the sewer service.

Mr Landlord's rate is based on all 4 of the above cost catagories that's why it does not equal the rate you get by just adding catagory 1 and 2 together. He takes the total billed cost (on his bill) and divides it by the total units used (on his bill) to get his Cost per Unit. Then he bills you at his Cost per Unit for each unit you used based on reading your water meter.

According to the lease covenant you quoted, you are required to pay the cost for all 4 catagories.

Does this clear up the confusion?

[Howard]

This may be a legal technicallity, but might be worth looking into - it says you are repsponsible to promptly pay water bills, NOT a derivation of a water bill generated by the landlord. To me that reads you must pay the city water bill based on your meter. I would also question if you are liable for tap-in fees incurred before the date of your occupancy. I would have a lawyer read this for you.

[James2011]

James,

It seems to me that Mr Landlord receives one or more bills per month from the city. These bills include:

1. Water cost per the city's water rate.
2. Sewer cost per the city's sewer rate.
3. Trunkage or other fees per the city's charge for providing the water service.
4. Readiness-To-Serve fees per the city's charge for providing the sewer service.

Mr Landlord's rate is based on all 4 of the above cost catagories that's why it does not equal the rate you get by just adding catagory 1 and 2 together. He takes the total billed cost (on his bill) and divides it by the total units used (on his bill) to get his Cost per Unit. Then he bills you at his Cost per Unit for each unit you used based on reading your water meter.

According to the lease covenant you quoted, you are required to pay the cost for all 4 catagories.

Does this clear up the confusion?

Larry,
(1) and (2) already mentioned in my post,
and according to short answer from property manager today, he said their rate to us is just "(1) water (2) sewer and (3)small maint. fee( I see this $$, but very small)), so there are no (3) and (4) you pointed above.

[James2011]

This may be a legal technicallity, but might be worth looking into - it says you are repsponsible to promptly pay water bills, NOT a derivation of a water bill generated by the landlord. To me that reads you must pay the city water bill based on your meter. I would also question if you are liable for tap-in fees incurred before the date of your occupancy. I would have a lawyer read this for you.

Howard,
I think you are right.

I also guess three possible cases:

1) landlord charge more than actual billed, in other words get profit from water usage
2) shopping center uses a lot of water for common use purpose e.g. cleaning parking lot, cleaning(power wash) walk path, cleaning building, or, there are maybe unmetered water outlet which are used by some tenants
3) City maybe apply/use different water rate to the shopping center ( this is very low possibility according to property manager's response)

The other thing I am concerned is next year is my current lease expiration, so I will need to renew my lease, so is it ok to challange landlord for this matter now? it doesn't give bad impact for me to get new lease?