Use of Natural gas vs. Electric Water Heaters

[Chris_Williams]

Hello,

I'm doing research on starting a new laundry matt in my hometown in Maine. I'm looking at different scenarios for water heating, I know that natural gas is standard for most of the country but I wanted to know how prevalent other sources are (electrical, propane, oil?!). Does anyone know where I can find information on the most common forms of hot water generation and also information on non-natural gas systems?

Thank you,

Chris

[Howard]

Electricity is the second most costly way too heat hot water -- the only more costly method is to put water in a pot and light dollar bills on fire under the pot to heat it. Stick with gas, it is the most cost effective way to heat water.

[MrMachine]

Electricity is the second most costly way too heat hot water -- the only more costly method is to put water in a pot and light dollar bills on fire under the pot to heat it. Stick with gas, it is the most cost effective way to heat water.

Lol...so true.
Chris, if you want to heat your water with something other than natural gas due to lack of availability, then I would suggest either propane, or even an oil fired boiler. The new oil boilers are more efficient these days than you may think. It's just that right now, natural gas is the cheapest, most simple and cleanest.
Anything but electric.

I would also say solar panels, but where you are located makes that one unfeasible as well.

[mjwalsh]

Hello,

I'm doing research on starting a new laundry matt in my hometown in Maine. I'm looking at different scenarios for water heating, I know that natural gas is standard for most of the country but I wanted to know how prevalent other sources are (electrical, propane, oil?!). Does anyone know where I can find information on the most common forms of hot water generation and also information on non-natural gas systems?

Thank you,

Chris

Chris & others,

My friend Jeff Deal may frown :o at me for this --- but have you ever checked with your extensive research to see if something like the following could work in a multiple modular way. It says something about being 99% efficient.

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/plumbing/water-heaters/Tankless-Water-Heaters-Gas/navien-np-240a-ng-tankless-condensing-natural-gas-water-heater-circ-pump-mini-buffer-tank

MikeW

[CanCanCase]

We burn Natural Gas at #1 and #2. There is no availability at #3, so that store runs on propane.

Oil boilers are great - used them for years in my residences and commercial buildings in Alaska. Then again, other than electric, oil is close to the only option.

My current home runs on electric, and I hate it! I can't get the natural gas company to consider my home and 2 businesses as one account, however, and the volume used in a few homes isn't enough to justify bringing the supply in...

-Case

[bo]

Electric is expensive not only as a source for heat but also the equipment and infrastructure are many times more expensive. Electric hot water , in the size and demand rate necessary for a laundry, would be astronomical. The amperage required would be in the thousands.

[apartment_guy]

We burn Natural Gas at #1 and #2. There is no availability at #3, so that store runs on propane.

Oil boilers are great - used them for years in my residences and commercial buildings in Alaska. Then again, other than electric, oil is close to the only option.

My current home runs on electric, and I hate it! I can't get the natural gas company to consider my home and 2 businesses as one account, however, and the volume used in a few homes isn't enough to justify bringing the supply in...

-Case

17 years ago I bought a six-unit apt bldg which was all-electric. It was a foreclosure, and part of the problem was the cost of electricity (given that the rents included all of the utilities).

I got rid of the two 100 gallon rental hot-water tanks and got some gas-fired tanks. The gas company punched a line in from the street at no cost to me.

My total cost for the conversion was $800, and in the first year the total cost of energy went from $7,200 (for electricity only) to $3,600 (for electricity and gas combined).

I also installed a gas-fueled dryer in the laundry room. Nonetheless, the building still has electric baseboard heat and am not convinced that it is significantly more costly than the gas-fired hot-water heating at my other properties.

But those electric hot-water heaters had to go!

[Howard]

...Nonetheless, the building still has electric baseboard heat and am not convinced that it is significantly more costly than the gas-fired hot-water heating at my other properties....


Think about what you are saying. BTU's are BTU's. You proved that gas supplied BTU's are significantly cheap for water heating. That same fact applies for space heating. You are killing yourself with electric heat.

[N BROWN]

Chris,
To do a valid comparsion you need to contact suppliers in the area you are thinking about locating and get a quote on the cost of all 4 fuels. They should also be able to tell you the btu's per unit they are using. The electric will be in Kilowatt-hours, multiply the KWh times 3412 to get Btu's per kilowatt hour. By converting all the prices to a price per million Btu's you can directly compare the cost of each fuel. You will see the advantage of natural gas.
The only wrinkle to this comparsion is heatpumps. I have a store that has a hotwater heatpump. The advantage of heatpumps is they produce approx. three times the energy they consume. Plus the byproduct is cold air. Pretty handy in the summertime. Not so great in Maine. If the price of Propane keeps going up I am thinking of switching a store to Geothermal using a watertowater heatpump with a Geothermal loop. This is an expensive solution but I think long term it will be the most cost effective.

To mjwalsh. I have a store that using two of the Navien heater using a pump and two storage tanks. Just installed in Dec. but they seem to be doing a great job.

[apartment_guy]

Think about what you are saying. BTU's are BTU's. You proved that gas supplied BTU's are significantly cheap for water heating. That same fact applies for space heating. You are killing yourself with electric heat.

Perhaps I ought to qualify my comments.

I did a detailed cost analysis five or six years ago, using about eight years’ worth of data. I was surprised to find that my heating costs (per square foot) were the same at my electrically-heated six-plex as they were at the hot water (gas) heated twelve-plex.

Of course, since then gas prices have fallen dramatically and electricity rates have increased equally dramatically, and your comments have caused to me to revisit my spreadsheets (using more-recent data).

I agree that the numbers now favour gas, but not to an extent that I would contemplate converting (and gas prices have nowhere to go but up).

In any case, when comparing the BTU output of the appliances it must be remembered that not all of the heat produced by the boiler is used efficiently, insofar as much of the heat is lost enroute, warming spaces where it is not needed. Electric space heating goes exactly where it is needed, and if tenants turn down the heat when it's not needed there is little waste.

In this context I perhaps ought to mention that I am not above attempting to influence tenant behaviours, which has certainly helped me reduce operating costs (and the cost of electric heat in particular). I expect that the previous owner did not take advantage of this potential.

[Howard]

It is probably not accurate to compare heating cost for two totally different buildings as there are too many other variables that would impact the costs. Those would include construction, insulation, leakage, wind exposure, occupant behavior, equipment efficiency, etc....

What you have to look at is the cost to deliver the required BTU/hr to the structure. Thus, just look at the cost for a BTU from electricity compared to the cost for gas. As far as gas costs having no where to go but up, don't be too sure about that. They will likely continue to go down as more and more exploration and development continues in the States. The long-term projections are steady to lower gas prices. But the bottom line is that gas will always be cheaper per BTU than electric because of the losses in both generating and transporting electricity.

[MrMachine]

What you have to look at is the cost to deliver the required BTU/hr to the structure. Thus, just look at the cost for a BTU from electricity compared to the cost for gas. As far as gas costs having no where to go but up, don't be too sure about that. They will likely continue to go down as more and more exploration and development continues in the States. The long-term projections are steady to lower gas prices. But the bottom line is that gas will always be cheaper per BTU than electric because of the losses in both generating and transporting electricity.


It's unlikely for natural gas costs to go up much even if the economy recovers.

Fracking is just in the beginning stages, and now Super-Fracking is being developed. This will also bring down electricity because power plants now mostly use gas to generate power, and oil Fracking is also going on big time.

http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm/9640/Super-Fracking--the-Next-Shale-Gale

What is amazing is that America now has the potential to go from an energy importer to an energy exporter!

[Howard]

....
What is amazing is that America now has the potential to go from an energy importer to an energy exporter!


Yes but that is the 64 trillion dollar question. If major LNG facilities and terminals get approved for export then the price of gas will soar as it will seek out the global market where it will compete against oil on a BTU basis. So, if that happens the domestic price will go up. Currently its only domestic supply vs demand that are driving price, once more markets open up there will be almost unlimited demand which will drive prices.

[MrMachine]

Yes but that is the 64 trillion dollar question. If major LNG facilities and terminals get approved for export then the price of gas will soar as it will seek out the global market where it will compete against oil on a BTU basis. So, if that happens the domestic price will go up. Currently its only domestic supply vs demand that are driving price, once more markets open up there will be almost unlimited demand which will drive prices.

Very good point Howard. The world market would dilute the gas savings.
Oil is higher than narural gas right now because of that worldwide market.
So you KNOW that the gas producers will be looking to get onto the worldwide market, and that's when the oil/gas disparity will level out.

That could be a few years off though. Don't you think?

[Howard]

Yes definitely a couple or three.