Hot Water Heater Solution Advice

[rbh]

Well, as usually happens on a Saturday, my hot water heater crapped the bed today. Its an old AO Smith Burkay 650k btu I believe. Its got a leak, which caused other problems to the point where I'm either going to throw some money into this or replace, and given its age and efficiency, I'm inclined to replace.

Now I'm a novice in all ways when it comes to this and the options, so I'm looking for advice. My challenge is about a year ago, I replaced my storage tank with a new efficient tank. I know some of the options out there like the Phoenix heaters Larry utilized have their own tank, is that right? Should I assume that the money spent on that tank ends up being throw away if I go with that type solution or can they be paired together? Sorry if thats a stupid question, just looking for advice given the money just spent on the storage tank (I know,I should have considered the whole solution at the time!)

Thanks

[Howard]

You tank is not wasted!

First examine if you really need 650 KBTU/HR. I would bet you don't. Let's say you go with a pair of Natco (Phoenix) Super-E 199-120 units. This will be a great solution. First, in most places you will no longer need annual boiler inspection if your units are under 200KBTU/Hr. You can plumb these units in parallel and then put your existing tank in series circulating back to the inlet. What this does for you is gives you more storage capacity, which might let you get by with fewer BTU of heating capacity. You can then set one unit five or ten degrees colder than the other. One unit will fire at low demand times, and the second unit will only fire up when the first cannot maintain demand.

[Adamski]

Originally Posted by rbh

Well, as usually happens on a Saturday, my hot water heater crapped the bed today. Its an old AO Smith Burkay 650k btu I believe. Its got a leak, which caused other problems to the point where I'm either going to throw some money into this or replace, and given its age and efficiency, I'm inclined to replace.

Now I'm a novice in all ways when it comes to this and the options, so I'm looking for advice. My challenge is about a year ago, I replaced my storage tank with a new efficient tank. I know some of the options out there like the Phoenix heaters Larry utilized have their own tank, is that right? Should I assume that the money spent on that tank ends up being throw away if I go with that type solution or can they be paired together? Sorry if thats a stupid question, just looking for advice given the money just spent on the storage tank (I know,I should have considered the whole solution at the time!)

Ron,

Based on my experience, I have to recommend the Phoenix brand water heaters which are made by Heat Transfer Products. I have two 199,000 btu units and each has a 120 gallon tank for a total of 240 gallon of storage. These two units provide all the hot water I need for my 34 washers. HTP recommends these be plumbed using the Reverse Manifold method. This simply means plumbing the cold supply water to unit A first and then to unit B second and plumbing the hot service water from unit B first and then from unit A second. It's not complicated at all and provides a balanced operation of the system.

I don't know what your hot water demand might be but I would try to NOT use the tank you have now. I'd be inclined to sell it and take a loss on it. The Phoenix units can be hooked up to an external tank but I'm not sure it's worth the effort to do that. I'd be more inclined to simply buy the number and size units required and plumb them as recommended by HTP.

[rbh]

Thanks Guys, that's helpful. So I'm doing the calcs to figure out just what I need for capacity, please tell me where I may be thinking wrong about this.

I take my Dexters, newer models, and am taking the total water usage and dividing it by three to figure the hot water usage. The two rinses are cold (I think I'm right on that).

I'm taking my old ipsos with five baths and dividing the total water per cycle by 5 as I believe the pre wash and rinses are all cold, just the main wash is hot.

For my tops Maytag give me a hot water usage per cycle (although seems low to me) but anyway, just to be safe, I'm using the same number for my neptunes, figuring they use less but that gives me some wiggle room if maytag is FOS with their numbers.

So I add it all together and come up with 247 Gallons of hot water if every machine was run at once. Now of course, in theory, each could be run about twice an hour, for an drop dead worst case scenario of 494 gallons....but I don't believe I should size for that, as I consider that building a church for easter sunday so to speak.

So the phoenix has a capacity of 335 gallons per hour with a 100 degree rise I believe.....I think I can make it work with one. Does anyone think I'm all wet behind the ears on my thought process?

[Howard]

You are not all wet. Your numbers are probably high, as it is virtually impossible that all of the machines even if all running at the same time would all be calling for water at the same time.

As for using the tank, it would be an excellent way to have more storage. A simple recirculating pump makes it work very well. I ran my two units such that one effectively was operating 85% of the time as just a storage tank. Yours will just add surge capacity and depending on the size of the tank you might be able to get away with just one heater and your tank.

[Jefflange]

Htp also makes the elite VWH which is a high eff. Boiler you use with a storage tank.

[STOUT]

I have noticed that I get more demand for hot water in the winter and less in the summer. I have been keeping a log for a couple of years now and have found this out to be helpful.

[rbh]

Just did a little research on the unit Jeff mentioned....so it would seem maybe to make sense to pair that unit with my tank if I A) Wanted to keep the tank and B) wanted to avoid more than one unit.....???? I'm also height challenged in my basement where this will go, and that unit would be a much better fit. Seems similar in efficiency to the Pheonix and of course same company, is the technology all that different between the two? Anyone have any experience with that particular unit?

Sorry for all the questions, but I have to do something tomorrow and get moving as I'm without hot water right now!

[ronny]

I'm VERY happy with my two HTP Phoenix 119 gal heaters - I got rid of a 300 gal tank and have had no problems keeping up with demand in a 50 or so washer store.

[mjwalsh]

Originally Posted by rbh

just looking for advice given the money just spent on the storage tank (I know,I should have considered the whole solution at the time!)

Thanks

Ron,

If you have a place to temporarily set aside your new storage tank ... it is possible that it may have resale value. It is something to consider.

A properly spec'd circulating pump & proper additional components should make the existing storage do-able like Howard suggests. The schematic & layout drawings should be on verified engineering level documents to avoid any serious errors. Since your space is an issue ... spatial verification should also be a step in the process.

Some of us have learned through the school of hard knocks what can happen ... by just foolishing trusting & not verifying all the technicalities such as proper flow etc.

A pre-sales engineer at HTP should be a source of information. Let us know what the specific technicalities HTP is concerned about with using your specific already bought almost brand new storage tank.

mike walsh king koin of bismarck